Am I wrong or is it too soon for most ebook readers

[Robertb]

Originally Posted by jveenem

Jeez Louise!

Following a link I got to Tablet Kiosk (is that a brand or a merchant?) and saw their "entry level" tablet with a 12" color screen (is that 12" diagonal? most of the others say 7" ... maybe they are 7" diagonal)

Isn't that what we really want, a big screen that will do EVERYTHING, text, magazine layout and full color?

But the price ... $1,800! Isn't that the reason why you WANT to get a dedicated device? To cut down the technology to ONLY what you want to do and cut the price down with it. Why is it the techology companies always seem to go nowhere with the price? I remember being in the market for a stand alone keyboard I could write on and then later attach it to my computer and download the text to my PC. Great idea. Needs less technology than a PC ... but then why did most of them cost as much as a PC? Even at $300 that seemed excessive as I only wanted a keyboard with some memory in it. I finally found one, a used two year old model AlphaSmart which I got on Ebay for $25 (with $25 shipping ... grrr) But why does one have to buck the whole system to get something?

I've been the Pocket PC route and was dissatisfied, one because it's screen was so small but two all the rest it could do was wasted. I really only wanted an e-reader. The "cut down a PDA to make an E-reader" idea was the idea behind the Franklin Ebookman, no? But why did they price it at the same cost as a PDA? ... infact there were cheaper PDA's. True, the Ebookman finally got dumped and you could pick them up later for $35 ... but, sadly I suppose, by that time I'd found the EBookwise and went with it instead. (The Ebookman for some reason had trouble with some USB's, you apparently couldn't have it from a USB board it had to be from the motherboard, my Windows 98 machine thus was incompatible and the thing refused to work ... broke my heart at the time)

Okay ... so big color screens DO exist ... when will somebody do the rest and for a peanut price. I swear if they do it'll be a revolution. Imagine all those kids who don't need backpacks for textbooks and can read homework AND comics on a handheld device ... somebody will make a billion dollars off that ... but nobody seems to have the brains to do it yet. Instead we get $300 and $600 plain text devices in black and white that are only suitable for afficiandos. The Text'n Tech heads.

That I live to see the day.

Later
JVN

Dear JVN:

Coming out with our own Astak EZ Reader, maybe I can be of some help. Here is a very fast sumation of costs to market on eBook Readers and why they cost $300:

1. The panel on a 6 inch costs about $60-$70 alone. This is what you call a "screen". It is E-ink and E-paper!
2. ROUGHLY, the guts on most eBook Readers cost the same as the panel... so we are up to $around $140.
3. Then they have to be formatted in something (example: Mobipocket with a license fee of around $50,000). Figure one eBook Reader's share at $20.
4. Then they get sent over on the boat to USA. Landed in USA they are maybe $170.
5. You have to have technical support for them to honor warranty repairs plus RMA and more space to do the techncial repair. Plus, people return them for no reason (often minus all the guts inside) Add $30.
6. Then you have sales and marketing and advertising costs. You are around $210 now.
7. Add $5 for each device's share of a warehouse... up to $215.
8. Now you are ready to sell to distributors, chain stores. etc. You want $45 profit per device and the chain store wants $40... that is around $300 to the end user; and that is IF you want to lay out all that cash for a $45 profit.

So... this is a fast lay-out of WHY eBook Readers cost over $300 to the end user for a simple device. And, I am leaving out engineering fees and GUI fees and other inherent costs. Maybe letting people know what the economics are will let them understand that all of this is NOT easy!

Robert B

[nekokami]

Robertb, thanks for laying out the costs for us. We've often speculated about the cost breakdown of readers around here. I think we're in an unfortunate position right now in that many people can't justify $300 for a single-purpose device, especially with ebooks priced as they are currently (the same as paper books or higher). Some of us have other reasons to prefer ebooks, e.g. limited shelf space, dust allergies, etc., but for most people, it's going to be hard to justify spending this much on top of what we spend for books already. Hopefully costs will come down, both for producing the devices and for the ebooks themselves.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Robertb

Coming out with our own Astak EZ Reader, maybe I can be of some help. Here is a very fast sumation of costs to market on eBook Readers and why they cost $300:

1. The panel on a 6 inch costs about $60-$70 alone. This is what you call a "screen". It is E-ink and E-paper!

Robert B

Wouldn't all those things apply to every device? Why can I buy a Nintendo DS for $129? Even if I get you an extra $60 for the 6inch screen thats $189.

BOb

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Wouldn't all those things apply to every device? Why can I buy a Nintendo DS for $129? Even if I get you an extra $60 for the 6inch screen thats $189.

BOb

I think a big factor here is the volume. They manufacture in larger runs and probably get a better deal. I also wonder if they're trying to make as much profit on the hardware. They may be relying on game sales.

Oh and editing to add: I doubt the "guts" would come to $80 as in Robertb's figures. I bet a large chunk of the "guts" is the rather specialized controller.

[MrFinch]

Originally Posted by jveenem

The only thing that got this ecomic lover interested was when I saw an HP monitor that swiveled from landscape to portrait size. It was enormous. It was nearly the size of original Comic book art, bigger than standard magazine size ... and in vivid bright color. I thought that maybe it was overkill. $375 to see giant comic pages whole when an ordinary monitor can do the panels teir by teir just fine. -- tho' I remain sorely tempted.


JVN

On that note, JVN...I just bought a refurbished HP1955 monitor on eBay for $150-19" flat panel, NOT widescreen (because I have no use for a bloody widescreen, even though thats pretty much all they sell these days....) because it swivels from landscape to portrait, to look like this:




Great for comics!!

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Wouldn't all those things apply to every device? Why can I buy a Nintendo DS for $129? Even if I get you an extra $60 for the 6inch screen thats $189.

BOb

Its my understanding that consoles and handhelds sell at a loss-they make all their money gouging the public for games

[nekokami]

Let's not forget that the Nintendo DS uses LCD, not e ink. That's an older technology and costs have come down considerably due to volume and efficiencies that have been developed in the manufacturing process.

[Robertb]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Wouldn't all those things apply to every device? Why can I buy a Nintendo DS for $129? Even if I get you an extra $60 for the 6inch screen thats $189.

BOb

Dear Pilot Bob:

The Nintendo DS is a backlit LCD screen. It is far cheaper to manufacture BUT uses up power at huge rates. The eBook is E-Ink and E-Paper and is more expensive to manufacture but does not need a backlite and does not use ANY power except to turn the page and play music. You get 8,000 pages on a single charge which really makes electronic reading practical.

It is like putting books on a Blackberry. You can do it but is it really practical because you get maybe 10-20 hours on a charge depending on talk time and such. Also, the Nintendo, I believe, is made in Mexico. I was the first person, origionally, to EVER get game cartridge and game CD manufacturing out of Japan and into the USA. The PVI screen (E-Ink and E-Paper) can only be made in Taiwan and there is an enormous savings in shipping costs if done in Mexico.

There are other factors also but this should help to answer!

Also... regarding the cost of the "guts" in an eBook Reader... keep in mind that those are factory costs and they are climbing. People buy the components for eBook Readers in maybe quantities of 5,000... cell phone companies may buy SOME similar components 2 Million at a time! Please do not mistake that I am giving you honest costs from an insider that has no reason to lie.

Robert B

[hidari]

Seems like most of the people who buy ebook readers are satisfied. The size is correct. A "bigger" size is not portable and easier to break. The "day" of the ebook has arrived; otherwise, you would not have companies as big as Amazon and Sony in the Market

. Your request for bigger and colour is in the minority of users i would guess. most people want to READ books. Hence, black and white is fine for reading 90 percent of the books out there. I am sure a 'comic book' oriented reader of large size will arrive one day. Funny thing is, Here in Japan 90 percent of manga is in black and white.

I would say the price of the readers is not that high considering how overpriced the 'ipod' is for example. If you read 25 books from GP on your dedicated reader who have basically gotten your money back. And as many have said... e-ink and the battery life with it in themselves are enough to justify a high price. I only charge my 505 and Gen 3 about twice a month...

hidari

Originally Posted by jveenem

I've not been clear in what I said ... due to what I said ... matter of emphasis I guess.

The "Paperback" Bookreader has already been here ... and gone ... it seems for lack of interest. Gemstar couldn't do it. Franklin couldn't do it on the no frills side. Rocket e-book seems to have come closest maybe in getting acceptance and use, but from my impression more so outside of america.

Perhaps, it was actually from a lack of support on the manufacturer's side as they priced themselves out of the running with the general public. Pricing a "simplified" item so high.



Later
JVN

[JSWolf]

Bit if they use the plastic logic technology, it may not be as easy to break.

[redbaron101]

Originally Posted by hidari

.. .. .. Funny thing is, Here in Japan 90 percent of manga is in black and white.

thats because manga is traditionally always been printed on recycled rice paper in black and white. Also their frame sizes are different, why scanlations or japanese manga may have drawings that cover the page or three/four frames wide or high, the american manga tends to be in colour and more cost constrained so they have to fix to certain no of frames per page

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by redbaron101

Also their frame sizes are different, why scanlations or japanese manga may have drawings that cover the page or three/four frames wide or high, the american manga tends to be in colour and more cost constrained so they have to fix to certain no of frames per page

More precisely, there is no specific panel size (or shape) in manga; the page layout is part of the creative design. On the other hand, there are default sizes and shapes of panels in American comics, though variations do exist (partly because of the increasing influence of manga on American comics). I think it's more a matter of tradition and style than cost constraints.

[ProDigit]

Originally Posted by hidari

Seems like most of the people who buy ebook readers are satisfied. The size is correct. A "bigger" size is not portable and easier to break. The "day" of the ebook has arrived; otherwise, you would not have companies as big as Amazon and Sony in the Market

. Your request for bigger and colour is in the minority of users i would guess. most people want to READ books. Hence, black and white is fine for reading 90 percent of the books out there. I am sure a 'comic book' oriented reader of large size will arrive one day. Funny thing is, Here in Japan 90 percent of manga is in black and white.

I would say the price of the readers is not that high considering how overpriced the 'ipod' is for example. If you read 25 books from GP on your dedicated reader who have basically gotten your money back. And as many have said... e-ink and the battery life with it in themselves are enough to justify a high price. I only charge my 505 and Gen 3 about twice a month...

hidari

I think increased resolution (720x1024) would be good for pdf and anime.
Also, Robertb, How can you explain that an EeePc2G is being sold for 300$ ($250 on ebay), while it has:
- a 800x480 color backlit LCD screen.
- 2x0.5W speakers
- A Celeron D 800Mhz processor
- 2GB SLC (FAST) SSD onboard
- SDHC cardreader
- 512MB SoDimm DDR2 memory
- Wifi & 100mbit LAN
- Soundcard (mic-in,headph.-out)
- 80% size keyboard and 2button mousepad
- VGA out
- 3xUSB
- Kingston lock
- 0,3Mpix webcam

all that seems like twice as expensive to me, yet sells for the same price!
($20more for the 4GB version)

some e-readers like the Iliad sell for a price ($699-$799)where you can buy a fullsize notebook for (in the likes of an Intel Core2Duo 2Ghz, 14,1" 1280x800 pix, with 200GB HD, and 2GB of RAM, wifi b/g/n, 1Gbit lan, 3xusb, vga out, internal DVD-RW, kingston)..

[redbaron101]

I suppose when it comes to pricing there are a lot of different factors - remember if the device is in a saturated market a lot of manufactures sell their devices at a loss to try and get a market share/presence. With e-readers its a pretty new market - yes, I know they've been around for donkeys - but look how long its taken them to come to the uk for example, and only a few models / high street retailers at that.

I guess with time as the ereader market matures and if more companies/factories start producing the actual eink screens that all the readers use, we might actually see the price drop. Although with the current financial crisis most countries are in, it may take a while.

For my two cents, i think as sub notebooks are becoming more popular, we may possibly see a shift in ereaders moving away from say ARM processors to Atom based e-ink devices. If this happens, and as the ereader market matures, only then will we see a significant drop in the price for e-ink ereader devices.

[ProDigit]

Originally Posted by redbaron101

I suppose when it comes to pricing there are a lot of different factors - remember if the device is in a saturated market a lot of manufactures sell their devices at a loss to try and get a market share/presence. With e-readers its a pretty new market - yes, I know they've been around for donkeys - but look how long its taken them to come to the uk for example, and only a few models / high street retailers at that.

I guess with time as the ereader market matures and if more companies/factories start producing the actual eink screens that all the readers use, we might actually see the price drop. Although with the current financial crisis most countries are in, it may take a while.

For my two cents, i think as sub notebooks are becoming more popular, we may possibly see a shift in ereaders moving away from say ARM processors to Atom based e-ink devices. If this happens, and as the ereader market matures, only then will we see a significant drop in the price for e-ink ereader devices.

I'm thinking that the lowest 800Mhz Atom processor still is too powerful for a reader device.
besides, according to this page:http://ark.intel.com/cpugroup.aspx?familyID=29035 the lowest Atom processor any manufacturer would probably choose is the Z510 on 1,1Ghz, due to it's +7years availability.

I suspect ARM processors are in-line processors like the Atom processor.
that would make the slowest Atom about 5 times faster than current processors used, not to mention the many multimedia benefits it has over ARM (MMX, SSE 1 2 & 3), that would be left unused in an ebook reader, unless they find ways to accelerate the e-ink display speed upto 25-30fps for video applications, and maybe add a webcam.


I found a remarkable comparison between current ebook readers and camera's!
The current ebook reader is capable of displaying ebooks, and playing back audio like an mp3 player. Some are taking on the job of internet browsing as well.
It's a bit like photocamera's and video camera's
both can be used to take pictures and film, but they're only good at one of the two jobs!

I wonder if there will be ever a time, when we'll have our all in one!
E-ink display, 8MPix photo cam & video cam., MP3 player and internet device, all in the size of a cellphone!

[Lemurion]

I'm on my second hand-held reader, though I haven't managed an Eink device yet. Right now, prices are high because volumes are low; as time goes on prices will drop and volumes will rise. Sony's move into Target is a brilliant step in this direction. Get people aware of e-reading and interest will rise. A big sale on Black Friday this year will really help drive things up.