Digital Vs. Physical Goods

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

OTOH, if ebooks could legally be resold, there'd be a lot less incentive to mass-distribute free copies. Customers would look for ways to restrict access to the books they bought & hoped to resell. They wouldn't blithely participate in mass torrenting and fileshare sites.

That's just silly. People mass distribute digital content because they have no regard for intellectual property. There is no justification or incentive such that if the content author changed their ways, the pirates would respect their ip.

Why would anyone pay you for your "used ebook" <stifles a snicker> when they can just steal the file. If they are going to steal from the author, why would they not steal from some guy trying to resell is "used" digital file <ok, now I can't actually hold the laughter in>

Lee

[leebase]

Originally Posted by lebleaux

Yes I am aware that I want to do something that could not be done with physical books and have more than one person reading a 'single' book at once - of course I want to do this

A great example of how digital content is not the same as physical content, and why digital content is "licensed" not "owned".

I completely concur with your desired use -- just as I concur with those who want to be able to copy their dvd's to a computer or media device -- or who want to be able to read an ebook on their device of choice which may change over time.

It's so easy to disagree with the current state of DRM - but it's at least worth considering the legitimate reasons for DRM.

There is no free lunch. It's like the practice of recording shows on a DVR and then skipping through the commercials. This practice (I do it myself) is going to end free ad supported Tv. Just wait and see.

Lee

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by Fastolfe

- The mostly-honest who do petty thefts if they can get away with it and if it's not too much hard work: they are those who see the wallet, look around to check that no-one is around, and pocket the cash. They are the overwhelming majority of people.

I completely disagree. In fact there was an informal study cited in the book "Freakonomics" (or was that "Outliers" - sorry don't remember anymore. It seems someone kept meticulous records about a "serve yourself a bagel and drop the money in tin style business", including informatipn on how many bagels were not paid for, what parts of the city this was in, which building, and even which floor. It seems that based on his long term bookkeeping about 80%(again from memory) of the people are honest. The funny thing was that there was a correlation between how high up in the building you are and increasing theft. It seems people at the "top" (managers, vips, ceos) felt they were more entitled to a free bagel then the remainder of the public.

The author cites a number of related studies and he found that 80% is a good number. Obviously, broad economic conditions where not controlled for nor was the fact that these people were all employed (no one was starving) and that bagels were reasonably priced.

So you may be surprised how may be surprised about how many truly honest people there are out there. Especially for a fairly priced item that they actually "own" - ie. could sell to someone else, or consume as they desire.
"Food" for thought ;-)

The other thing to take into consideration, is the demographics of ebook and book buyers. Somehow, I do not think they are the general public nor do I think they match up well with teens and young adults who pirate software or music.

Unfortunately, there is not much hard data out there to address any of these issues.

No one has ever tested EULA click agreements in the fine print in things called "Stores" in court (that did not have a written contract associated with it).

There have been a few tests by authors of removing DRM from their books and they actually increased their sales (see the WSJ and O'Reilly data on these) but they were not large scale statistical experiments.

In fact, I think we may have a good PhD student behavioural statistical study idea that could be done in a lab setting with actual ebooks! Of course you would have to have good demographics about current book and ebook buyers from which to draw a properly randomized sample. I will see if I can get any of our students interested in trying it.

[leebase]

If you want to put out free bagels with a "pay if you like" sign next to it, more power to you. I totally respect your right to run your business that way. You can also leave your car unlocked with the keys in it, and leave your house unlocked and garage door open if you like.

I equally understand the guy who locks his posessions, and puts controls in place to deter theft of his goods.

Lee

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

digital goods are not physical goods, and efforts to make them act like physical goods are simply going to engender giggles.

I've stolen that for use in my signature. With attribution, of course. Is it still stealing with the attribution? Hmm....

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I've stolen that for use in my signature. With attribution, of course. Is it still stealing with the attribution? Hmm....

Since I used to be a physicist, stealing with attribution was what I did all day

[bhartman36]

The issue isn't so much DRM as it is the type of DRM being used. If everyone used the same DRM scheme, you'd be able to transfer your files between devices. It could even potentially work between different types of devices.

It's also not true, strictly speaking, that you can't resell e-books. I had given my mother my old Kindle 1, and she recently gave it back to me (because she got the Kindle 3). Even though it's de-registered, there are still some of her books on it, including A Rope and a Prayer: A Kidnapping from Two Sides, which is a $13 book, and not marked in the Amazon tags as being DRM-free. Now, I'm not sure why that works. It might be because the books are on the SD card, and not on the device's main memory. Still, if I were to sell this Kindle (which I will be doing today), then the next person to get it could read the book, and I could include it in my description as an additional feature, increasing the resale value of the Kindle. Doesn't that count as reselling the book?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by leebase

If you want to put out free bagels with a "pay if you like" sign next to it, more power to you. I totally respect your right to run your business that way. You can also leave your car unlocked with the keys in it, and leave your house unlocked and garage door open if you like.

Here's the article in question: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/06/ma...pagewanted=all

Payment rates for his bagels fluctuated over the years, but seem to have been between 85% to 90% overall.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Here's the article in question: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/06/ma...pagewanted=all

Payment rates for his bagels fluctuated over the years, but seem to have been between 85% to 90% overall.

There's a reason why this model isn't necessarily a good fit for ebooks: It has to do with the social impact of physical proximity.

In a closed system, where people see other people enough to be familiar with them, and direct-contact social groups emerge, people are more likely to be honest about self-policed transactions. Part of the reason is that they expect there to be negative repercussions if their social group discovers they are being dishonest. (This is assuming the entire group doesn't decide to be dishonest, in which case, dishonest behavior becomes the accepted norm.)

Those in the "higher levels" of the office structure tended to be less than honest, simply because they believed that their positions insulated them from repercussion.

The internet is more of an open system, where social groups have no direct physical contact, hence no real social repercussions to be feared from bad behavior. In this atmosphere, people can steal with impunity, confident that no harm will come to them, even if others are aware of their actions. This is the atmosphere ebooks find themselves in, so they become a prime target for thievery, dishonesty and unethical behavior.

The only way to police such a situation is to device a security system that depends on the desire of individuals to honor it, because of some fringe benefit it provides... say, reduced taxes or access to some otherwise-unavailable content. (Imagine, in the bagel scenario, taping your business card to the change you left behind, and at the end of the week, getting a free donut delivered to your desk.)

This way, though the system itself may be flawed, individuals will accept the security system, and products like ebooks can be kept secure in the market.

[susan_cassidy]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

It's also not true, strictly speaking, that you can't resell e-books. I had given my mother my old Kindle 1, and she recently gave it back to me (because she got the Kindle 3). Even though it's de-registered, there are still some of her books on it, including A Rope and a Prayer: A Kidnapping from Two Sides, which is a $13 book, and not marked in the Amazon tags as being DRM-free. Now, I'm not sure why that works. It might be because the books are on the SD card, and not on the device's main memory. Still, if I were to sell this Kindle (which I will be doing today), then the next person to get it could read the book, and I could include it in my description as an additional feature, increasing the resale value of the Kindle. Doesn't that count as reselling the book?

This practice violates the Amazon Terms of Service, for one thing. So, it is not really legal to sell a Kindle to another person and leave the books on it. It also uses up one of your licenses for that book. Books are not deleted from the device when you de-register it, which is why the book was still there.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by susan_cassidy

This practice violates the Amazon Terms of Service, for one thing. So, it is not really legal to sell a Kindle to another person and leave the books on it. It also uses up one of your licenses for that book. Books are not deleted from the device when you de-register it, which is why the book was still there.

If the device is being sold along with the content, how is that violating the terms of service? If I sell that Kindle, I'm no longer getting the service, am I? As for the license, it would be irrelevant to me. I can understand I'd need to delete the books from, e.g., any other Kindles I had or the desktop software, but as long as I did that, I wouldn't be copying anything, would I?

I honestly don't want to do anything illegal, but I don't see how it's a violation, if I don't keep a copy of the books myself.

[susan_cassidy]

The Amazon Terms of Service say: "Limitations. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not bypass, modify, defeat, or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content."

[Anke Wehner]

Quoted from http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...deId=200144530 - emphasis mine

Use of Digital Content. Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Device or as authorized by Amazon as part of the Service and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.

Restrictions. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party,

You get the right to view the content personally. You may not grant any rights to anybody else. Since one of the rights grantable is the right to view, it follows that nobody but you may view the content.

So, the letter of the terms means that, for example, if in a family of three all want to read the same ebook, each needs to buy their own copy through their own amazon account.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by susan_cassidy

The Amazon Terms of Service say: "Limitations. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not bypass, modify, defeat, or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content."

Right. But my question is, if I no longer have the Kindle in question, how am I violating the Terms of Service? If my apartment complex says "no pets", I'm more than free to get a dog if I move out of the complex and buy a house.

[susan_cassidy]

You distributed content to a third party by leaving it on the Kindle.