Book piracy: Less DRM, more data

[NVash]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Wow, someone with a head on their shoulders. What's this world coming to? Hopefully this catches on with the other big guys.

We can hope but I dont see it happening any time soon. In the first paragraph it was said that this experiment was conducted and he tried to get other publishers to do it but they refused. Its almost as if they dont want to truly know whether or not piracy benefits them. Its much easier for them to sit there and call it 'lost sales' then to actually find out whether it is or is not.

Originally Posted by GA Russell

I wonder, for example, how many $4.99 eBooks are pirated.

I would assume a whole lot less than ones priced over the price of the paperback. There will always be pirates but why pirate a cheap book when you can just buy it? Now if its overpriced thats a whole different story.

Originally Posted by Belle2Be

I don't think they are ever going to be released officially electronically, she seems pretty adamant about it, I do find it funny(ironic?) that it didn't stop it from being pirated.

http://www.thebookseller.com/news/11...ter-books.html
I thought she finally agreed to make them, what happened?

If theyre looking at piracy so much why dont they take a moment and look at back catalogs? Why dont they look at all the books that have yet to be made into ebooks that people have scanned and put online? Books that people keep requesting for Kindle? Why dont they hop on that bandwagon and give the customers what they want instead of wasting time complaining about piracy?

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by Pookeysgirl

From a moral standpoint I don't see anything wrong with downloading from the darknet if you've already bought the books in paper form (twice). The author has made her money off your purchase and isn't really losing anything if you want a digital copy of the book you've already purchased.Which is just my opinion of course

This is my attitude. Law is totally screwed up right now. Free Market is good - companies can manufacture wherever they want - China or wherever - but consumers must obey region coding on DVDs, geographical restrictions on books, and other nonsense. How does that make sense? The free market should work for consumers as much as it should for companies.

Companies can dump whatever restrictive, ridiculous DRM they want on digital products, but the consumer has no rights to fix it under the law. It doesn't make any sense.

Stick with what is moral instead. Did you purchase a copy of the book? Worry about that first.

[Kiwiscott]

This Guy seems like he has a better grasp on the situation than most. There may be hope for the future if more publishers start thinking like this.

On another track, is downloading an ebook torrent much different from buying a second hand book, or borrowing it from a friend? Second hand sales generates no additional income for the Author or Publisher, only for the person selling it at the yard sale or second hand shop. Like wise borrowing from a friend, you have the one initial sale and thats it.
My point is, publishers have faced challenges maximising their revenue for a long time, learning from the current trends of eReaders, eBooks, demand for such, and associated 'piracy' is key to moving the publishing industry into the 21st century.
The music industry did it, and there are still companies making lots of money from digital product, publishers just need to move with the times.

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by Kiwiscott

This Guy seems like he has a better grasp on the situation than most. There may be hope for the future if more publishers start thinking like this.

On another track, is downloading an ebook torrent much different from buying a second hand book, or borrowing it from a friend? Second hand sales generates no additional income for the Author or Publisher, only for the person selling it at the yard sale or second hand shop. Like wise borrowing from a friend, you have the one initial sale and thats it.
My point is, publishers have faced challenges maximising their revenue for a long time, learning from the current trends of eReaders, eBooks, demand for such, and associated 'piracy' is key to moving the publishing industry into the 21st century.
The music industry did it, and there are still companies making lots of money from digital product, publishers just need to move with the times.

Secondhand sales benefit primary sales to some degree. There's been studies on this for used videogames. People buy new games, then trade in and sell their video games and use the money to buy more new games. There's a beneficial effect to the industry. I personally think PC game sales are struggling to some extent because you can no pretty much no longer sell games. I can't prove this gut feeling though. I've become very, very cautious about buying any computer games now because once that plastic is open, I'm out the full price.

In the same, but perhaps different way, copyright infringement , like torrent downloads, of media may lead to increased sales - there is some data to suggest this - but it's certainly a more tenuous connection.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by NVash

If theyre looking at piracy so much why dont they take a moment and look at back catalogs? Why dont they look at all the books that have yet to be made into ebooks that people have scanned and put online? Books that people keep requesting for Kindle? Why dont they hop on that bandwagon and give the customers what they want instead of wasting time complaining about piracy?

Because it suits the purposes of the publishers to remain sitting on their hands bleating about how piracy is hurting them. This is exctly what the music and entertainment industry continue to do, only changing their business and distribution practices with the greatest reluctance. Instead of spending money on change, they spend squillions on litigation lawyers and court cases.

Easy to blame others rather than blame yourselves for not making the changes needed.

[jehane]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I know that many people on this board who are having problems with geo restrictions are frustrated because they know they can order the DTB from Amazon and have it mailed to them for an arm and a leg.

As someone who lives in a non English-speaking country, I can confirm that access to English literature is more than a little difficult. I have to special-order books at my local English bookshop (at special-order rate), wait for at least 4 weeks, and of course go downtown to get them when they've arrived.

Can I recommend BookDepository? THere are US (.com) and UK (.co.uk) versions and they price books at the home market rate, and free international shipping. 10% off vouchers are relatively frequent as well. They also have ebooks, though I haven't kept up with their selection.

[elcreative]

Downloading a torrent is distinctly different... nobody gets any money from D/Ling a torrent... second hand sales generally do generate income for authors, albeit indirect. The seller receives some money back on the book which frequently goes into buying another, new book and a second hand purchase can lead to purchases from the buyer if getting to grips with a new author. OK, none of these are guarantees but at least there is a chance of some spread from second hand purchases...

Originally Posted by Kiwiscott

On another track, is downloading an ebook torrent much different from buying a second hand book, or borrowing it from a friend? Second hand sales generates no additional income for the Author or Publisher, only for the person selling it at the yard sale or second hand shop.

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

As an author who provides work at higher quality than a lot of Big Pub backlist books... in multiple formats... at low prices... with No DRM and no geo restrictions... from my own site as well as commercial sites... as many MR members can attest...

And still gets pirated...

I'd say the idea that providers are "not meeting emergent demands" isn't what is causing piracy. The consumers are as much at fault here as the providers.

That's why doing nothing but throwing blame around isn't solving anything... and nothing will be solved until we deal with the inequities that cause piracy.

How many copies are being pirated versus how many are being sold? Who is tracking the pirated copies, and how many of them are even read?

You need to quantify things to be able get a handle on whether it is worth the energy getting angry about.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by MovieBird

How many copies are being pirated versus how many are being sold? Who is tracking the pirated copies, and how many of them are even read?

You need to quantify things to be able get a handle on whether it is worth the energy getting angry about.

Which was the exact point of the original article I posted.

*Nobody* knows, because *nobody* is tracking the data. It's just easier and safer to complain about how much the publishing industry is losing than finding out it may not be as bad as we hear and in fact *may* have a positive effect.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by NVash

If theyre looking at piracy so much why dont they take a moment and look at back catalogs? Why dont they look at all the books that have yet to be made into ebooks that people have scanned and put online? Books that people keep requesting for Kindle? Why dont they hop on that bandwagon and give the customers what they want instead of wasting time complaining about piracy?

There's another thread right now about the unavailability of Rebecca in a legit e-book form--or any of Daphne du Maurier's works, for that matter. It's a classic, it's still in print, so obviously people are still interested in it--but to read it on a device, you have to go over to the dark side. How many potential customers have been lost already? How many will then buy it for $15or so when it finally does become available?

[elcreative]

Just playing Devil's Advocate for the moment... why bother doing back catalogue if it's going to be pirated anyway... and how horribly unreasonable of publishers... not only haven't they turned all of the last year's books (est at 230,000 titles) into eBooks but they haven't even done all the millions in their back catalogues... how dare THEY??

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by elcreative

Just playing Devil's Advocate for the moment... why bother doing back catalogue if it's going to be pirated anyway... and how horribly unreasonable of publishers... not only haven't they turned all of the last year's books (est at 230,000 titles) into eBooks but they haven't even done all the millions in their back catalogues... how dare THEY??

Why do you say they'd be pirated anyway? A lot of them are pirated because they're not available legitimately. If I could have found Rebecca at B&N or another seller, I would have bought it and not kept searching for a copy elsewhere.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

Secondhand sales benefit primary sales to some degree. There's been studies on this for used videogames. People buy new games, then trade in and sell their video games and use the money to buy more new games. There's a beneficial effect to the industry. I personally think PC game sales are struggling to some extent because you can no pretty much no longer sell games.

Same thing with books--people traded and resold books, and either used that money to buy new books, or used borrowed/gift books to decide what to buy next.

No used market = no easy recommendation list among friends. No more, "hey, you like stories with funny-looking aliens; here, have this book I read last week. I didn't care for the space station politics, but maybe you'll like the author enough to buy more from him."

Instead, there's "I didn't care for the political focus, so I'm not buying more from that author, and I'm not going to bother telling my friend who likes aliens, because maybe he won't like the politics either, and I'm not going to suggest that he waste $8 finding out."

I'll hand a pbook I didn't care for to someone with similar tastes on the off-chance that she'll like it; I won't suggest that she buy a whole book I didn't care for unless I'm absolutely certain it fits her tastes very well.

In the same, but perhaps different way, copyright infringement, like torrent downloads, of media may lead to increased sales - there is some data to suggest this - but it's certainly a more tenuous connection.

Publishers of books, games & music all fight very hard to avoid collecting, or at least releasing, data that would prove this one way or the other.

All we've got to go by is the fact that the books, songs, & games most heavily pirated are the ones that sell best, which doesn't support the claim that piracy is damaging profits.

[elcreative]

Good for you but I wasn't saying anything as such... first line was "playing Devil's Advocate," i.e. this is what many publishers think...

Originally Posted by Catlady

Why do you say they'd be pirated anyway? A lot of them are pirated because they're not available legitimately. If I could have found Rebecca at B&N or another seller, I would have bought it and not kept searching for a copy elsewhere.

[NVash]

Originally Posted by elcreative

Just playing Devil's Advocate for the moment... why bother doing back catalogue if it's going to be pirated anyway... and how horribly unreasonable of publishers... not only haven't they turned all of the last year's books (est at 230,000 titles) into eBooks but they haven't even done all the millions in their back catalogues... how dare THEY??

While that does make sense it almost makes none at all. I thought they were complaining about piracy. One cant say something like 'No use getting these books scanned, theyre being pirated anyway' and then complain about piracy. Thats like saying the same thing about regular books. No use scanning up that new Wheel Of Time, its being pirated anyway. When will they stop encouraging the pirates? Its obvious from piracy that again, some will pirate no matter what, but most will pay if given the opportunity. Not giving the opportunity completely takes the argument away from them. They can complain all they want but I doubt anyone will listen.

Truthfully the whole thing makes no sense to me. But then again neither do most business practices.

From what Ive read online many games are pirated now due to other ridiculous measures that have been put into them. Keys that customers have to input that, once theyre put in become useless, which completely kills its replayability. I can speak for that from my own experience. I got World Of Warcraft when I got my new computer. I played it and I didnt like it. I was more than willing to pass it off to a friend but the key is only one time usage. So now I have a $40 brick that frequently reminds me how much I hate that game. Many people resort to the Darknet to get versions that people have somehow found a way around and no longer need keys. I actually read this on an Amazon review for a game, computer games are getting worse and worse with DRM to make sure that the customer who bought it is the only one who plays it. Is that even necessary? If they did that kind of thing with PS3, Wii or 360 games thered be a huge outcry... and Gamestop would go out of business. You know occasionally I consider giving WoW another chance, especially after that new expansion but since I already used my key on another computer, itll never happen. And no, they arent getting another $40 out of me. Instead of actually putting a dent in piracy theyve encouraged it even more because many people who have actually paid for the game cant get it to work and instead go to the Darknet for a pirated version. Now whos fault is that?