You don't matter - and you never did

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

If mass-market paperbacks don't matter ... then why do publishers print and sell so many of them? In many case, paperbacks (MM or TP) are the only form a book is released in.

That seems to be for books they are unsure if they will sell or not. But as soon they know that an author will sell they will start with a hardcover edition.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

But the problem isn't that the big publishers make most of their profits from hardback sales. The problem is that they cannot be trusted.

I doubt that is the problem.

Originally Posted by GA Russell

They used to say that the cost of materials was a big part of the price. Now they say it's not.

Does that really matter? Either you want to read a book or you do not. Either you think the price is worth the experience, or you do not. People did not care that Amazon lost money on it's $9.99 ebooks. Why should it matter to them. Amazon was willing to sell the book at a price they were happy to pay. No one (or not many) bothered to even care HOW Amazon could afford to lose money.

Originally Posted by GA Russell

Now they promise that the price of eBooks will come down for backlist titles, but we see on another thread that the price of the Catch-22 eBook is comparable to that of a new release.

One book does not a market make. Even in Apple's iBook store -- most of the titles are less than $9.99. But, again, either you think the price is worth it _to you_ or you do not. It does not matter WHY a book has whatever price it has.

Let's say the publisher of Catch 22 has a very good reason for it's high price. Something to do with contracts with the author, yadda yadda. Just PRETEND there was a good reason for a moment. Does that change anything? Either you think the eBook is worth the price _to you_ or you do not. If it is too high, _for you_, according to your _own_ reasons -- then it won't matter whatever reason the publisher has.

Just as it wouldn't matter to folks if Amazon decided to lose money to sell it to you for $1. All that matters is if there is agreement between what you are willing to pay and what the seller is willing to sell it for.

Originally Posted by GA Russell

They ask us to trust them and we don't. Lee, you give us permission to pirate the eBooks, but the publishers are not willing to do so. If they were, I would have no problem with the OP.

I don't give folks permission to pirate. I think it's stealing. I'm just saying that those who steal do not matter anymore than those who only read books second hand. Both are invisible to the publisher who is marketing a book to folks who will PAY the price the publisher sets.

Lee

[abookreader]

Originally Posted by leebase

I don't give folks permission to pirate. I think it's stealing. I'm just saying that those who steal do not matter anymore than those who only read books second hand. Both are invisible to the publisher who is marketing a book to folks who will PAY the price the publisher sets.

Lee

That is only true if the seller has no interest in growing their market. Sellers who want to attract more customers than those who are already buying their product care very much about those who have an interest but are not yet buyers. They care very much about why that buy button isn't being clicked.

That doesn't mean they'll automatically change the product or price, but to say that group of people is invisible and doesn't matter is naive.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by L.J. Sellers

I think the point is that people who don't buy $26 hard covers are the same people who won't spend more than $9.99 on a e-book. I don't think this is true. I'm one of those people who don't buy hardbacks, for many reasons, but I don't think much about the price of e-books I really want. All consumers matter.
L.J.

You are an author. Do you CARE about folks who think that $1 is all any book is ever worth? I mean, sure, as "people" you care about "people". But do you care in the sense that you'll change the price of your book to $1?

I never liked hard back books myself -- and only rarely bought them (like a new Harry Potter book). It wasn't the price (well, past when I became an adult), it was the size. So an ebook is something I'd pay a hard back book price for because I VALUE having the convenience of an ebook, and the ability to read a book when it first comes out (for those rare books that I care that much for).

But, publishers care very much about those who DO buy those expensive books as that's where they make the lion share of their money. So it's not folks like ME that matter to the publishers as I'm just not in their target market.

Lee

[leebase]

Originally Posted by abookreader

That is only true if the seller has no interest in growing their market.

If someone does not value their product, then they don't matter. They will start to matter when they value the product. What your statement does is validate the point. Folks only matter BECAUSE they have potential to value the product.

I am specifically referring to the new release hard back book market because that's the pricing that is in contention here. Amazon had a choice to WAIT for ebooks to be available AFTER the initial hard back selling window. Just like those of us who buy the paper back books always have had to wait. Just like you have to WAIT to see a movie at the cheap theaters or on tv.

Publishers simply don't care whether or not you or I are willing to pay $25 for a hard back book when they have MILLIONS who do. They realize that folks won't pay $25 if the paper back is available at the same time for $10. Who would?

So, in order to have ebooks available day one with the hard back release, the publishers demanded higher prices and folks who don't want to pay do not matter to them. Such folks can wait, just like they always have. They can wait on the list to check out at the library, wait for the paper back, wait until their friend finishes their copy, wait for the remainder bin.

Lee

[Maggie Leung]

I hear what you're saying, Lee. I don't think people who primarily bought used books or borrowed books will drive prices. But I dunno that publishers will be able to hold current price points.

As it is, I'm not complaining about e-book prices. I already pay less for digital now than I used to pay for trade paperbacks, which were my primary print purchases.

[SensualPoet]

Originally Posted by leebase

But, publishers care very much about those who DO buy those expensive books as that's where they make the lion share of their money. So it's not folks like ME that matter to the publishers as I'm just not in their target market.

I'm really surprised no one has suggested that publishers are concerned as much about profitable volume as they may be about charging the most possible for a hard cover book.

Like you, Lee, I've never actually liked or bought many hard cover books: they are bulk, hard to handle and store; I have ALWAYS preferred paperbacks. Of these, trade paper are my preference ... but not when it's $20 vs $10. But I'd argue the publisher likes me anyway: they want to sell 2 hard cover, 5 trade paper and 25 mass paper ... as long as I am in that ecosystem, they're happy. And they probably do care about me.

I'd also suggest publishers are likely to find more "love" for ebook buyers in 2011 as a number of the major publishing houses have admitted 10% of their 2010 revenues are coming from ebooks. Anyone believe that percentage will go down in 2011? 2012? Publisher's love is in the air ... can you feel the earth move, baby?

[leebase]

I hear what you're saying, Lee. I don't think people who primarily bought used books or borrowed books will drive prices. But I dunno that publishers will be able to hold current price points.

You may be right, time will tell. That's why I don't fret over the "Agency 5". Why should I care? I was never one to buy the hard backs anyway. If I could wait for the paper back, why can't I wait for the ebook to drop in price?

But I am a fan of a few authors and eagerly look forward to when their books are released. I've paid $22 for a Harry Potter hard back so I could have it on the first day, so why would I not pay $14.99 for an ebook if Rawlings were to write another Harry Potter book? I'd pay $30 for said new Harry Potter ebook. I'm a fan. I'm not paying for paper or bandwith, I'm paying for the story and for the experience of reading it when all my friends are reading it.

The publishers will drop the price of books, like they always have. They start high, get as much as they can during that demand window, and drop prices as demand wanes. Only they will have far more flexibility with pricing for demand.

They simply will go by what people actually spend money for.

As it is, I'm not complaining about e-book prices. I already pay less for digital now than I used to pay for trade paperbacks, which were my primary print purchases.

Yep. I buy ebooks, and for the most part, they have been right about the price of a paper back. Those few I've spent more for, are those that I would have had to spend even MORE to get the hard back.

Lee

[leebase]

Originally Posted by SensualPoet

Like you, Lee, I've never actually liked or bought many hard cover books: they are bulk, hard to handle and store; I have ALWAYS preferred paperbacks. Of these, trade paper are my preference ... but not when it's $20 vs $10. But I'd argue the publisher likes me anyway: they want to sell 2 hard cover, 5 trade paper and 25 mass paper ... as long as I am in that ecosystem, they're happy. And they probably do care about me.

Ok, I admit my use of hyperbole. You and I don't matter WHEN IT COMES to the hard back pricing window. They care very much about those who are willing to pay hard back book prices that they went to war with their number 1 distributor. They care so much, that they were willing to make LESS per ebook sold than they were getting from Amazon before.

That's a lot of caring -- but only because they have millions of folks buying those expensive hard back books. When it comes to that time window, that pricing scheme, you and I do not matter to them. We never did.

Lee

[abookreader]

But again Lee

Getting stuck in the hardback, paperback declining price model is the traditional method of publishing that you are trying to force onto an evolving and dynamic market. It is quickly becoming a new market and new markets have new rules.

The entire point of Agency pricing was to try and prevent eBooks from "devaluing" a book. The problem is, the digital era is disintegrating the barriers of entry into the publishing marketplace. Right now the Agency Five can lock the value of a new release eBook at $12.99. Okay, it'll semi work in the short-term because the Agency Five can at least semi-control the bestseller lists and the shelf space by the front door at Barnes and Noble and Borders.

The problem is, customers are quickly moving away from shopping in physical bookstores and the bestseller lists are starting to be heavily effected by eBooks. All ebooks - not just the major publishing house ebooks.

Five years from now when there are 50 start-up mid-range publishing houses selling their new releases at $8 and Amazon is churning out 4 books a month via Amazon Encore and pricing them at $4 and 12 big name authors have started self-publishing via the internet and selling their backlist for $4.99.

Will there be millions of people left buying those $25 new releases?

I wouldn't bet money on it.

Do the Publishers care?

My guess is yes.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by abookreader

But again Lee

Getting stuck in the hardback, paperback declining price model is the traditional method of publishing that you are trying to force onto an evolving and dynamic market. It is quickly becoming a new market and new markets have new rules.

Well, the market is not so different. What is really new?

The entire point of Agency pricing was to try and prevent eBooks from "devaluing" a book.

The main purpose was to protect the hardcover bestseller income for now.

The problem is, customers are quickly moving away from shopping in physical bookstores and the bestseller lists are starting to be heavily effected by eBooks. All ebooks - not just the major publishing house ebooks
.

Which bestseller list are you reffering to?

Will there be millions of people left buying those $25 new releases?

Only a big best seller will sell in the millions. And it is a best seller because people are willing to pay for it. Peopla that usually do not buy books.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by leebase

You learn that you don't need to worry about folks who think you charge too much. They aren't your customers. They don't value what you do. You market yourself to folks who DO value the service you provide.

Publishers are trying to market ebooks to their current hardcover buyers, and it's not working. (It's working somewhat, but they're grasping at straws trying to make that model go. Shifting people from buying $25 in paper that they loan to friends to $25 in digital that they don't, or even to $14 in digital that they don't, isn't going to last long.) To succeed with an entirely new format, they need to market to different customers.

For that, what those customers are willing to pay does matter. And publishers have no way of even acknowledging potential digital customers who have never been pbook customers.

So, ignored by major publishers, I buy from the people who *do* want to sell me what I want to read. And I tell my friends. And they listen, because the tower of e-babel is confusing and weird, and I understand it and they don't... so when I say "buying DRM means you might not own your book in 3 years unless you install this software and learn this code," they say "to hell with that; what's with those multiformat things you were talking about?"

And we could accept "price isn't based on production costs" a lot easier if publishers were willing to admit it publicly. Instead, they keep showing charts comparing ebook production costs to hardcover production costs, implying that they're losing $2.50 on every paperback they produce, and assuming we won't notice the logic gap.

If publishers *really* didn't care about me as not-their-customer, they wouldn't get all panicky over ebook "piracy." Almost none of those people were going to buy the $25 hardcover anyway. What not-your-customers do with your product after someone's bought it (and *someone* bought every book that wound up in the torrent networks, whether paper or digital originally) shouldn't be your concern.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by abookreader

Getting stuck in the hardback, paperback declining price model is the traditional method of publishing that you are trying to force onto an evolving and dynamic market. It is quickly becoming a new market and new markets have new rules.

All I've done is point out that folks who pay the top price set the market, not those who complain about prices. It is not the publishers alone, but the millions of folks buying the hard back books at $20 and more who set the price.

All discussion about the cost of production is moot. Pricing is not about the cost of production.

Given that ebooks sales have continued their rapid rise, even after the Agency pricing model went into effect -- I see no evidence that $9.99 was the top price that a mass market would pay for ebooks.

We can holler back and forth at one another about how much ebooks SHOULD cost, or how much cheaper they are to produce. And it won't matter a hill of beans. The only thing that's going to matter is what the millions of folks paying top dollar do.

The few exceptions to the rule, doesn't change the reality that folks here who think $14.99 for an ebook is OUTRAGEOUS -- were not folks who spent $25 for hard back books.

All those other folks trying to break into the business, and enabled by technology, will be doing their best to sell their ebooks at the top price as well.

Lee

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Publishers are trying to market ebooks to their current hardcover buyers, and it's not working.

In what way is it not working? eBooks are the only segment of the book market that is growing. The Agency 5 pricing didn't slow down ebook sales in the slightest. Despite all the complaining on this forum, all the 1 star reviews by the protesters, the ebook pricing was raised, and sales continue to go up.

Until sales actually go down -- the publishers are not going to lower the prices of their ebooks.

Lee

[abookreader]

Everything about this market is new. Amazon already reports selling more ebooks than paperbooks. Authors are self publishing their old bestsellers that were out of print - for a third of the price of the new bestseller. You think that doesn't matter?

All the sudden, a book never goes out of print and is always instantly available via download? You don't think increased and constant availability of every book that is being published doesn't have a downward pressure on price?

Bestseller lists? US Today already includes eBooks. The New York Times will next year. The NY Times Hardback fiction list is currently the gold standard, will it be in five years? I don't know. Ask Karen McQuestion if she thinks that is important.

Even in airports, where travelers were always pretty much locked into what the shops had available to sell, usually at full list price .... all of the sudden now a book buyer has options. She is no longer a captive buyer. Don't want to buy a $15 book and don't like any of the paperbacks on that rack --- pull out the Kindle and find thousands of other choices.

The old model of publishing is on its last legs. Businesses who refuse to change as their market changes die.