NYT to Rank Ebook Bestsellers

[Xanthe]

Bestseller lists just mean the most sold and usually has no connection to reading satisfaction. Oprah says "I am reading XX now" and the Oprah-sheep immediately go out and buy XX. Voila! Instant bestseller. But how many of them actually read the book completely to the end and enjoy it? Grisham or King or Patterson put out a new book, and all of their fans buy a copy. Voila! Instant bestseller. But is it a good book or one that wasn't really worth buying? A NYT book reviewer says "You MUST read this book" and all of those who follow the NYT Book Section rush out to buy it. Voila! Instant bestseller. But how many of them actually read the book completely to the end and enjoy it?

Most of my favorite authors have never made and will never make the NYT Best Seller list. I don't check the list with any regularity (let me just say that I do like the NYT, think it's a great newspaper) because most of the books that show up on the fiction lists, I don't want to read. I don't want to read any of the self-help books that always appear on the non-fiction lists. So the fact that ebooks are going to be listed is relatively meaningless to me because I won't be using it to search for books to read.

I can, however, appreciate the fact that by giving ebooks their own Best Seller listing, they are validating ebooks and making ebooks come of age as a legitimate source of reading material.

If I want to find the ebooks that people ACTUALLY are reading though, I'll check the listings on the Dark Net. Except for the people who do the monthly bulk upload of ebooks, folks tend to post the books that they enjoy reading and want to share with others - not books that others should read or must read just to follow a trend.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Seanette

Nice job of psychoanalysis on a total stranger.

Thanks!

If you don't want to be considered an arrogant elitist, you might consider not putting everyone who reads bestsellers into the "following the herd" category.

Things may not be good because they are popular, but they aren't bad because they're popular, either.

[Seanette]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Thanks!

If you don't want to be considered an arrogant elitist, you might consider not putting everyone who reads bestsellers into the "following the herd" category.

Things may not be good because they are popular, but they aren't bad because they're popular, either.

I guess you were too busy finding things to get your shorts into a knot about to bother actually reading what I actually said (I know, it wasn't on the best-seller list, thus beneath you). My comment was not about people who read best-sellers, it was about those who ONLY read what NYT or Oprah have declared worthy so they can be just like everyone else.

I've got stuff on my shelves that hit the best-seller list, but that wasn't WHY I read it. I read it because I knew the author's work well enough to be sure it would be worthwhile, a friend whose tastes mesh well with mine suggested it, it looked interesting in a sales display, I ran across a favorable mention on a web forum/someone's Facebook/etc., and so on.

Let me guess, you take the NYT or Oprah as your reading guide and will not read that which your reading guide has not pronounced blessings on as "important", "meaningful", etc. Only explanation I can think of for the amount of energy you've poured into a defensive tizzy over some faceless online stranger expressing differing selection criteria.

[Salgueiros]

Honestly, i don't even look at the bestseller lists... what are they for? I can see a good use for publishers to use data from sales so they can do their stats and decide what area to invest or launch new themes, etc, but why on earth should i care about what other people are reading and why is it so important for people to know what is been selling more the last week? I confess i really do not know.

The only thing i care about in books is the quality of the book and writing, the subject, and the author if it is an author i read before and liked. I would never read a book or go see a film just because everyone else is going. That says nothing about the quality of the book.... Why do some people care so much about it?

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Oprah says "I am reading XX now" and the Oprah-sheep immediately go out and buy XX. Voila! Instant bestseller. But how many of them actually read the book completely to the end and enjoy it?

Wow, I didn't realize that Jonathan Franzen posts to MR!

Originally Posted by Xanthe

A NYT book reviewer says "You MUST read this book" and all of those who follow the NYT Book Section rush out to buy it. Voila! Instant bestseller. But how many of them actually read the book completely to the end and enjoy it?

Unfortunately for the reviewers, their readers are not mindless automatons who follow orders.

And really, there's no reason to be so patronizing of people who buy best-sellers. Unless you're reading Kritik der reinen Vernunft for the 20th time and writing your own English translation, I doubt your tastes are anywhere near as impressive as you think they are. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Xanthe

If I want to find the ebooks that people ACTUALLY are reading though, I'll check the listings on the Dark Net.

Yeah, that doesn't tell you anything about readership rates either. Downloading a book for free requires minimal effort, thus produces minimal commitment, thus zero necessity on the part of the reader to finish it. High download/seed/etc rates are just another mark of popularity.

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Unfortunately for the reviewers, their readers are not mindless automatons who follow orders.

And really, there's no reason to be so patronizing of people who buy best-sellers. Unless you're reading Kritik der reinen Vernunft for the 20th time and writing your own English translation, I doubt your tastes are anywhere near as impressive as you think they are. Sorry.

Oh, I don't think that all followers of the reviewers are mindless automatons. My point was that a lot of people read the books because they are on the list and they think that they should read those books to be au courant.

My point about the list is not that my taste in books is so elevated or impressive (it isn't at all - quite the contrary in fact ). I think that what turns up on the bestseller list is usually quite predictable, rather than being special. There is a handful of big-name novelists whose books will automatically appear on the bestseller list just because their fans auto-buy their books without even reading the blurbs about them. Usually there will be a generational saga. Usually there'll be a novel about a family in crisis with either a spouse/parent/child dying of some dread disease, or some slice-of-life book. Usually there'll be a novel about a woman or a man in a mid-life crisis, betrayed/divorced by a spouse who has moved on, estranged from their children or family, etc. There'll be some estoeric novel translated from another language. Maybe there will be a thinly disguised autobiography. I take issue with the idea that there is some sort of cachet to reading a book that is on a bestseller list. I don't think that anyone here can truthfully say that they don't know someone who reads books on those lists for just that reason.

I find interesting the defensive tone people are taking toward those of us who are dismissing the inordinate value being placed on the bestseller lists, by trying to apply the label of elitist to us. You, for example, immediately jumped to the erroneous conclusion that I must think that my reading tastes are more impressive than others.

Yeah, that doesn't tell you anything about readership rates either. Downloading a book for free requires minimal effort, thus produces minimal commitment, thus zero necessity on the part of the reader to finish it. High download/seed/etc rates are just another mark of popularity.

I've found in the ebook sections of the Dark Web that the people there are not into the download/seed rate popularity mindset. I think that you are confusing them with the movie and music uploaders, where being the first is a badge of pride. First of all, most of the sites that even make ebooks available are usually more community oriented, with low emphasis on seeding and more of an commitment to making books available, not to mention an interest about spreading the word about favorite or obscure authors. Downloading a book for free requires just about as much effort as downloading one that you've bought - lol - virtually no effort at all. Might even take longer if you're doing it via torrent and waiting for seeders to show up. Those who tend to download ebooks are, for the most part, people who love to read, and have been reading and buying books all of their lives. So I would say that they have just as much commitment to read the books as anyone else.

Getting a book via the Dark Net doesn't mean that the person is less likely to read it. I think that the popularity of a book on the Dark Net might actually be more indicative of its value, since it's not being influenced as much by marketing strategies and instead more by word-of-mouth. A lot of people who do upload books take the time and effort to convert them into multiple formats, create TOC's, correct errors, etc. People don't usually invest that kind of time and effort for books they don't read themselves.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Seanette

IMy comment was not about people who read best-sellers, it was about those who ONLY read what NYT or Oprah have declared worthy so they can be just like everyone else.

If that's what you were trying to say, you should have used words other than:

Why choose from the best-sellers, unless you want to be following the "what everyone else is reading" flock?

I prefer to choose my entertainment based on my own tastes, not the herd mind.

There's nothing in there about people who choose *only* from the best seller list. There is simply a condemnation of people who "choose from the best-sellers" as people who don't think for themselves and are only reading those books because that's "what everyone else is reading."

And then you point out that you are different from them because *you* choose your entertainment based on your "own tastes," not "the herd mind."

Let me guess, you take the NYT or Oprah as your reading guide and will not read that which your reading guide has not pronounced blessings on as "important", "meaningful", etc. Only explanation I can think of for the amount of energy you've poured into a defensive tizzy over some faceless online stranger expressing differing selection criteria.

No, I don't read many bestsellers. I just dislike arrogance.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

I think that what turns up on the bestseller list is usually quite predictable, rather than being special.

Man, you have no idea how many people in the book biz would kill for those powers of predictability....

I concur that some of it is not impressive literature, I just don't see any particularly pressing reason to slam the people who buy it, or any reason to presume they don't read it. Clearly people read the Harry Potter and Dan Brown books, for example.

There are also tons of books that follow The Formulas and fail to catch on, or that purposely avoid The Formula and take off.

Originally Posted by Xanthe

I don't think that anyone here can truthfully say that they don't know someone who reads books on those lists for just that reason.

I think I can. Their interest may be piqued by the book being on the bestseller list, or because all their friends read it (Eat, Pray, Love certainly seems to have made the rounds), but "cachet?"

Originally Posted by Xanthe

You, for example, immediately jumped to the erroneous conclusion that I must think that my reading tastes are more impressive than others.

That's pretty much because you're slamming other people who you don't even know based on your perceptions of their tastes. It's kind of insulting and condescending to suggest that millions of people buy books that they never finish or read.

Originally Posted by Xanthe

I think that you are confusing them with the movie and music uploaders, where being the first is a badge of pride....

Not really, it's more just that piracy rates allegedly track pretty closely to popularity. For example, if Twilight books are massively popular, they'll be heavily pirated as well.

Plus there are, I have little doubt, some people who acquire pirated materials out of an acquisitionist urge -- it's free, so why not collect as much as you can?

Or to put it another way, I don't see any particular reason to view pirates as enlightened readers and purchasers as saps who don't bother to finish reading the books they buy.

[Xanthe]

I believe the question I was asking was "how many of them actually read the book completely to the end and enjoy it?". I also said, "Bestseller lists just mean the most sold and usually has no connection to reading satisfaction." Are you suggesting that being on the bestseller list means that all people who read those books read them through to the end and enjoy the books completely?

Except for my rather snide label about the Oprah-recommended-book readers, I wasn't "slamming" anyone. You're the one who is trying to apply the "elitist" label to me. My comments are based upon my observations of the people I interact with who do read the books on the NYT list - just because they are on that list. So I was wondering if that extrapolated to the world at large - how many people do actually read those books through and actually enjoy what they read? I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard, "I don't know what the big deal is about that book. I'm glad that I got it out of the library - I would have been pissed if I paid money for it", and other comments to that effect. We perhaps run in different crowds - I do know people who view having read books that are on the bestseller lists as adding cachet to their conversations about books.

My point about predictability was that the content of the books on the list usually broadly contains a majority of the book types I outlined. That's why they keep turning up on the list. Of course what I suggested isn't set in stone, and there are always books that are unique and do bring something new and original to the table, but there are usually always a good representation of the Formula books week in and week out.

Or to put it another way, I don't see any particular reason to view pirates as enlightened readers and purchasers as saps who don't bother to finish reading the books they buy.

Not my words or meaning at all, but you can continue to think that's what I said if it makes you happy and/or you think that you are scoring a point on me.

[taming]

Have you ever actually looked at the books Oprah has chosen? They are not all to my taste either, but reading them doesn't seem like anything to look down upon.

2010
Freedom by Jonathan Franzen

2009
Say You're One of Them by Uwem Akpan

2008
The Story of Edgar Sawtelle by David Wroblewski
A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle

2007
The Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett
Love in the Time of Cholera by Gabriel García Márquez
Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides
The Road by Cormac McCarthy
The Measure of a Man by Sidney Poitier

2006
Night by Elie Wiesel

2005
A Million Little Pieces by James Frey
Light in August by William Faulkner
The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner
As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner

2004
The Good Earth by Pearl S. Buck
Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter by Carson McCullers
One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez

2003
Cry, The Beloved Country by Alan Paton
East of Eden by John Steinbeck


2002
Sula by Toni Morrison
Fall on Your Knees by Ann-Marie MacDonald

2001
A Fine Balance by Rohinton Mistry
The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen
Cane River by Lalita Tademy
Stolen Lives: Twenty Years in a Desert Jail by Malika Oufkir
Icy Sparks by Gwyn Hyman Rubio
We Were the Mulvaneys by Joyce Carol Oates

2000
House of Sand and Fog by Andre Dubus III
Drowning Ruth by Christina Schwarz
Open House by Elizabeth Berg
The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver
While I Was Gone by Sue Miller
The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison
Back Roads by Tawni O'Dell
Daughter of Fortune by Isabel Allende
Gap Creek by Robert Morgan


1999
A Map of the World by Jane Hamilton
Vinegar Hill by A. Manette Ansay
River, Cross My Heart by Breena Clarke
Tara Road by Maeve Binchy
Mother of Pearl by Melinda Haynes
White Oleander by Janet Fitch
The Pilot's Wife by Anita Shreve
The Reader by Bernhard Schlink
Jewel by Bret Lott

1998
Where the Heart Is by Billie Letts
Midwives by Chris Bohjalian
What Looks Like Crazy on an Ordinary Day by Pearl Cleage
I Know This Much Is True by Wally Lamb
Breath, Eyes, Memory by Edwidge Danticat
Black and Blue by Anna Quindlen
Here on Earth by Alice Hoffman
Paradise by Toni Morrison


1997
The Best Way to Play by Bill Cosby
The Treasure Hunt by Bill Cosby
The Meanest Thing to Say by Bill Cosby
A Virtuous Woman by Kaye Gibbons
Ellen Foster by Kaye Gibbons
A Lesson Before Dying by Ernest J. Gaines
Songs in Ordinary Time by Mary McGarry Morris
The Heart of a Woman by Maya Angelou
The Rapture of Canaan by Sheri Reynolds
Stones from the River by Ursula Hegi
She's Come Undone by Wally Lamb

1996
The Book of Ruth by Jane Hamilton
Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison
The Deep End of the Ocean by Jacquelyn Mitchard

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by taming

Have you ever actually looked at the books Oprah has chosen? They are not all to my taste either, but reading them doesn't seem like anything to look down upon.

That's a good point; I don't like all of those books either, but they are neither formulaic, nor genre, nor part of a series; they are all basically literary fiction. (With some classics thrown in, possibly due to the difficulty of consistently finding books that she was willing to endorse. Which is a good thing; I'll pay a lot more attention to a list of "good books" chosen as they are discovered than to a list containing the best book in a particular month, regardless of the absolute quality of the book.

[Seanette]

Andrew, welcome to my ignore file. I'm done with having everything I say twisted as an excuse to scream and rant and rave at me for daring to express the opinion that the best-seller lists (made up of pre-selected works, BTW) are not the only good or valid source of TBR lists, nor is Queen Oprah.