01-18-2018, 04:51 PM | #46 |
Connoisseur
Posts: 50
Karma: 145210
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Device: Kobo Aura Limited Edition, Kindle Voyager.
|
In the 70s I started reading the Perry Mason novels -- and others by E.S. Gardner. Many of them took place in the 30's and 40's and even then I was jarred by some of the expressions and attitudes by characters in the book. But they (mostly) weren't central to the story and were windows into a different time. Some I didn't understand until much later -- characters would ask "Do you have car fare?" and I had no idea what that meant until much later when I learned about LA's old street car system (called "Red Cars").
Sort of the flip side of this, I've recently re-read some SciFi that was written in 50s and 60's that take place in the 2010's (ie "now"). It is fascinating how far off things are -- both in turns of what hasn't happened (growing up, I was always looking forward to taking a vacation on the moon ) but what they missed totally (mostly advances in computing). You get some of the same things in older movies. I recently watched "White Christmas" (Bing Crosby/Fred Astaire) for the first time in a long while and the portrayal of African Americans was downright embarrassing. |
01-18-2018, 06:00 PM | #47 |
Evangelist
Posts: 401
Karma: 1597305
Join Date: Mar 2010
Device: Ipod G4, MacOS 10.12, Calibre, Pocketbook Touch HD 3
|
I find the casual sexism and racism (especially the racism) difficult to cope with in some books. Is it one of DLS's or Christie's that has the horrible scandal about a clergyman who is...gasp...black? I can remember reading that when I was a teenager and not being able to understand what the issue was (yes, I was so very, very innocent).
I didn't really notice the sexism in books until I'd experienced (in a huge way) once I started working. I remember being aghast reading about Marie Curie - she had to move to France to obtain a degree because she couldn't get one in Poland (I think that's right - it's been years since I read her daughter's book). I remember being outraged for a fictional character in a similar way when she "got a first but, of course, couldn't take a degree" (my emphais). That still rankles and I have no idea why. Hello? Fictional character! Nowadays, I'll stop reading if the female characters are only present to be either scream, be killed, snogged or bonked and then never mentioned again. For some reason I've become super sensitive to sexism - I've stopped watching some TV shows I'd previously enjoyed because they suddenly made me go all John Cleese ragey at the screen. I find myself applying the Bechdel test. Which is just tiresome for me, but I can't stop! It was in one of Sayer's books, Strong Poison, that the judge more or less kiboshed Harriet Vane's testimony because she'd lived with a man she wasn't married to. If she lived in sin, apparently she was capable of anything. Ah, the good old days, eh? I love Sayer's books, especially the Lord Peter's once Harriet turns up but I think the classism, racism and even sexism (e.g. Peter's "Cattery") were of the time. It doesn't make it right, but that's the way it was. The classism still exists to some extent e.g. although officers no longer have batmen, in some cases they do have servants (captains on ships, for example). Such an interesting topic! |
Advert | |
|
01-18-2018, 06:06 PM | #48 | |
Gentleman and scholar
Posts: 11,112
Karma: 109515481
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Space City, Texas
Device: Clara HD; Nook ST w/Glowlight, (2015) Glowlight Plus, Paperwhite 3
|
Quote:
|
|
01-18-2018, 06:27 PM | #49 | |
Just a Yellow Smiley.
Posts: 19,161
Karma: 83862859
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Texas
Device: K4, K5, fire, kobo, galaxy
|
Quote:
|
|
01-18-2018, 06:50 PM | #50 |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 10,464
Karma: 225537496
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Estonia
Device: Kobo Sage & Libra 2
|
It would depend on how graphic the abuse is. In older books, it's usually not as bad as in many modern books, though there are some exceptions (Thijl Ulenspiegel by Charles De Coster comes to mind, with its extremely graphic medieval torture scenes. I finished it, but I will never reread it again).
|
Advert | |
|
01-18-2018, 07:37 PM | #51 | |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 10,464
Karma: 225537496
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Estonia
Device: Kobo Sage & Libra 2
|
Quote:
Actually there are very few books I have stopped reading because I could not stomach their content. Mostly I stop reading because the book is just not interesting enough for me. And that's perfectly fine. There are far more books written than there are potential readers for them. So you have to choose anyway. |
|
01-18-2018, 10:22 PM | #52 | |
Wizard
Posts: 2,459
Karma: 68781975
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Arkansas
Device: Paperwhite 4
|
Quote:
I'm not sure it's true that Whites didn't think about it. I thought about it. My father had a Black janitor and he and I had a lot of conversations about that before things began to change. I was always mystified that he would accept things as they were. This was a guy with a masters degree, I don't recall in what, working as a janitor. I don't recall specifically why. Probably something to do with the subject of his degree but I'm just guessing. I knew back then. Years before that my dad, who was a flight instructor and managed a flying school, had a black janitor and he wanted to take flying lessons. So my dad made him a deal for lessons to be paid for by washing airplanes and other assorted jobs. He got his license and my Dad used him occasionally to ferry airplanes and that helped him build up time and eventually he got his instructor's rating. However, my dad wasn't willing to let him teach his students so he found other Blacks who wanted to fly and brought them in. Little by little he built up enough students to keep him busy and in time he began to substitute with White students as well. I was probably about 9 or 10 at the time and I was always working on weekends there and all summer long and I went flying with him a lot. Anyway when we moved to another town my dad suggested the owner make him manager, which he did. A few years later he came to visit. He was the new owner of the school and they still had mostly white students. This story is worth telling in this discussion because it was such a rare thing. Most Blacks didn't get chances like that and very few Whites were willing to give them, usually out of fear of reprisal from other Whites more than because they were racists. Whites did think about this sort of thing and talk about it among friends, but never openly. Barry |
|
01-18-2018, 11:14 PM | #53 | |
Just a Yellow Smiley.
Posts: 19,161
Karma: 83862859
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Texas
Device: K4, K5, fire, kobo, galaxy
|
Quote:
|
|
01-19-2018, 02:00 PM | #54 |
Wizard
Posts: 2,102
Karma: 17249026
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Pacific NW
Device: sony PRS350, iPhone, iPad
|
Edgar Rice Burroughs is an author that I always struggle with a little bit. The Mucker has Japanese bad guys, and I was amazed at the racism when I read it the first time. I would have almost understood it if it had been written during or immediately after WW2, but it was written in 1913. The Japanese villains are quite one dimensional with lots of references to the "Japs", their yellow skin and eye shape. The Tarzan novels also always seemed pretty condescending to the native African tribes that Tarzan encounters.
I see the racism but to some degree just chalk it up to the era. I don't tend to criticize someone for being in line with the prevailing thought of their time. (Rising above the prevailing thought is noteworthy and commendable though! Many well known historical figures {example, Thomas Jefferson} are progressive in specific areas but in line with their time in others.) It doesn't stop me from continuing to read and enjoy ERB's books. |
01-20-2018, 03:06 AM | #55 | ||
Banned
Posts: 666
Karma: 1752814
Join Date: Jan 2008
Device: Sony Reader PRS-505 : Onyx Boox Max : Sony PRS-900 : Onyx Kepler Pro
|
Quote:
Quote:
Hmmm....I had one book that I read when I was about 7 or 8 that involved a gang rape of a man and that was a bit much for me at that age but I remember picking that book up later in my late teens and finishing it off. As it stands now, probably not but there was another couple of 70s books I read at an early age called the Sensuous Man/Woman. Those were good but I again was a bit young when I read them and I couldn't handle the topic but I finished them both but remember feeling how my brain wasn't quite ready so I put them away until puberty As it stands now, no. I tend to pride myself on not being easily shocked. There are some subjects I'm not a fan of but there's nothing that I think could shock me. |
||
01-20-2018, 03:10 AM | #56 |
Banned
Posts: 666
Karma: 1752814
Join Date: Jan 2008
Device: Sony Reader PRS-505 : Onyx Boox Max : Sony PRS-900 : Onyx Kepler Pro
|
I wonder, did they get their foots cut in half for running away?
|
01-20-2018, 03:11 AM | #57 | |
Banned
Posts: 666
Karma: 1752814
Join Date: Jan 2008
Device: Sony Reader PRS-505 : Onyx Boox Max : Sony PRS-900 : Onyx Kepler Pro
|
Quote:
|
|
01-20-2018, 03:15 AM | #58 | |
Banned
Posts: 666
Karma: 1752814
Join Date: Jan 2008
Device: Sony Reader PRS-505 : Onyx Boox Max : Sony PRS-900 : Onyx Kepler Pro
|
Quote:
https://www.snopes.com/irish-slaves-early-america/ https://apnews.com/920e1c738df04555bccd56c09770b36d https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-03-...sh-slaves-myth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_slaves_myth I hope I've made my point and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to compare "Irish slavery" to the actual history of the American slave trade. EDIT: I like how far you got with that before anyone checked you. Last edited by sealbeater; 01-20-2018 at 03:18 AM. |
|
01-20-2018, 01:53 PM | #59 |
Wizard
Posts: 1,898
Karma: 9851695
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Noo Yawk
Device: Samsung Galaxy and Windows devices. RIP: Palm & Nook devices.
|
Quite right. Or have their spouses and children sold away from them? Or have to submit to being made into "breeders"? Or were they forced to "pleasure" the master, his sons, or his guests?
Last edited by Froide; 01-20-2018 at 02:34 PM. |
01-20-2018, 02:01 PM | #60 |
o saeclum infacetum
Posts: 20,372
Karma: 223034386
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New England
Device: H2O, Aura One, PW5
|
Let's stay on topic, please, with the discussion of class and race in fiction and eschew personal anecdotes and polemics. Thanks.
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Free (Kindle DRM-free) An Older Man by Wayne Hoffman [LGBT Literary/Men's Fiction] | ATDrake | Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) | 0 | 05-16-2016 05:08 PM |