Massive wave of ebook piracy?

[Blue Tyson]

Originally Posted by bobcdy

I was curious about how rampant piracy really is, so I searched for popular fiction torrents. I was really shocked. For science fiction/fantasy I could have downloaded at least 15,000 different books and short stories. I had more difficulty finding other types of fiction; for example, although I could find all of Agatha Christie's stories, I could not find many Rex Stout's Nero Wolf books, and I couldn't find any works by many popular mystery writers. Of course these are almost entirely pdf files, but I think they are text, not image pdf's and so can easily be converted to other formats.

I guess my point is that with so many, many pirate ebooks available they must affect the profits of their authors. I don't see how anyone can defend this on legal or ethical grounds.

The Stout books are out there, though - and I am sure plenty of popular mystery works are as well.

[Richey79]

<TheArchive> 8,12I have 95 match(es) for Rex Stout in listfile: TheArchive. Type @TheArchive to obtain the whole list
<TheArchive> !TheArchive Rex Stout - [Nero Wolfe] - Before Midnight (v1.0) [rtf].rar
<TheArchive> !TheArchive Rex Stout - red threads.rar
<TheArchive> !TheArchive Rex Stout - [Nero Wolfe 14] - Trouble In Triplicate (V1.0) [Rtf].rar
<TheArchive> !TheArchive Rex Stout - The Silent Speaker [Txt].rar
<TheArchive> !TheArchive Rex Stout - The Affair Of The Twisted Scarf [txt].rar

So... not a problem. If I knew who Rex Stout was, that is. I suppose I have the opportunity to try his books now - and perhaps purchase some afterwards, if I like what I read and the publishers offer legit ebook versions.

The argument that 'pirates' upload ebooks for glory is a false one, I think - you would get far more thanks and fame for proofing a public domain book for MobileRead's collection.

On IRC channels, scanning and proofing are approached in the manner you would a public service. You can usually track the different, improving editions of a release by the ever-increasing version numbers after the title and file-type. If only publishers took as much care formating and proofing their ebooks ;/

[Xanthe]

My impression of the majority of people who provide ebooks to the various P2P site is not that they are counting coup for the number of books they provide. That type of mentality seems to be more confined to the movie and games genre, where the age range and gender is more specific . A good portion of the music down-loaders have the "stick it to the RIAA" mentality as a result of the court cases that have been ongoing since the original Napster went down. Right or wrong, that mentality is entrenched.

But the ebook and audiobook sharers, with them it seems to be more of a sense of participating in a giant, worldwide free public library, from what I've seen. (And remember, the majority of us are used to reading books for free, and we tend to create our own lending libraries among friends and family.) They tend to thank each other for posts. They recommend similar authors. They act as reference librarians for one another and do searches for requested books. It's just a different mentality, and it hasn't been one of "let's rip off the writers and the publishing houses because we can". It's more of "oh, an author I never heard of before - that book looks good - thanks!" and "I'm glad I finally found an ebook version because my paper copy is falling apart from all the times I've re-read it".

What I mean is that the ebook/audiobook down-loaders are not the hard-core pirates that everyone seems so afraid of. Most of them are buying just as many paper books as they have in the past. They are people who just love books and who finally can share what they love with others. And a lot of them are fine-tuning the ebooks they put up with more care than the publishing houses do. I know the people who only see this issue in terms of black-and-white are going to dismiss this observation, but I'm telling you, there's a sense of community in those places, the same as there is here.

What I can see happening though, is as ereaders become more commonplace, more people are going to look for content for them. With the publishing houses trying to create a monopoly on pricing, they are traveling down the same path of the RIAA in that they are concerned with short-term profit instead of a long-range selling strategy. They are out-of-tune with their changing consumer base and if they don't wake up and realize that they are on the cusp of change, all of those easy-going people on the ebook sharing sites are going to develop that same "stick it to The Man" mentality that the music sharers have and refuse to pay high prices for ebooks.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

What I can see happening though, is as ereaders become more commonplace, more people are going to look for content for them. With the publishing houses trying to create a monopoly on pricing, they are traveling down the same path of the RIAA in that they are concerned with short-term profit instead of a long-range selling strategy. They are out-of-tune with their changing consumer base and if they don't wake up and realize that they are on the cusp of change, all of those easy-going people on the ebook sharing sites are going to develop that same "stick it to The Man" mentality that the music sharers have and refuse to pay high prices for ebooks.

Well said! This is precisely the way I see it as well.

The music/entertainment industry meanderings and failures should serve as a prime example of what not to do.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

I've never seen the point to this argument, because (1) it cannot be proven--it is simply hearsay, .

Maybe not, but neither can it be proven that they would buy it if they didn't. But if you are presented with a list of free books, those would be the only books you saw so you would choose from them (or download them all). Unless there was a series that obviously had one missing you wouldn't really think about books that you couldn't see.

[craig8128]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

My impression of the majority of people who provide ebooks to the various P2P site is not that they are counting coup for the number of books they provide. That type of mentality seems to be more confined to the movie and games genre, where the age range and gender is more specific ....

But the ebook and audiobook sharers, with them it seems to be more of a sense of participating in a giant, worldwide free public library, from what I've seen.

After giving it a lot of thought ... I think this analysis is spot-on.

Craig

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

My impression of the majority of people who provide ebooks to the various P2P site is not that they are counting coup for the number of books they provide. That type of mentality seems to be more confined to the movie and games genre, where the age range and gender is more specific . A good portion of the music down-loaders have the "stick it to the RIAA" mentality as a result of the court cases that have been ongoing since the original Napster went down. Right or wrong, that mentality is entrenched.

But the ebook and audiobook sharers, with them it seems to be more of a sense of participating in a giant, worldwide free public library, from what I've seen. (And remember, the majority of us are used to reading books for free, and we tend to create our own lending libraries among friends and family.) They tend to thank each other for posts. They recommend similar authors. They act as reference librarians for one another and do searches for requested books. It's just a different mentality, and it hasn't been one of "let's rip off the writers and the publishing houses because we can". It's more of "oh, an author I never heard of before - that book looks good - thanks!" and "I'm glad I finally found an ebook version because my paper copy is falling apart from all the times I've re-read it".

What I mean is that the ebook/audiobook down-loaders are not the hard-core pirates that everyone seems so afraid of. Most of them are buying just as many paper books as they have in the past. They are people who just love books and who finally can share what they love with others. And a lot of them are fine-tuning the ebooks they put up with more care than the publishing houses do. I know the people who only see this issue in terms of black-and-white are going to dismiss this observation, but I'm telling you, there's a sense of community in those places, the same as there is here.

What I can see happening though, is as ereaders become more commonplace, more people are going to look for content for them. With the publishing houses trying to create a monopoly on pricing, they are traveling down the same path of the RIAA in that they are concerned with short-term profit instead of a long-range selling strategy. They are out-of-tune with their changing consumer base and if they don't wake up and realize that they are on the cusp of change, all of those easy-going people on the ebook sharing sites are going to develop that same "stick it to The Man" mentality that the music sharers have and refuse to pay high prices for ebooks.

Outstanding post, and I believe right on the money. I am continually amazed how businesses can see the writing on the wall, fight like mad to stop it from happening, and enraging their customer base, then scramble to fix a problem that THEY created all because they didn't want to change their way of doing business.

[L.J. Sellers]

I've given away a lot of e-books -- sent mobi and epub files to strangers, just to be nice. A little voice in the back of my head always nags me about setting myself up for piracy, but I ignore it. Piracy is going to happen no matter what I do or don't do. I've decided that having more people read my books is a good thing, even if they don't pay for them. But it is unethical, especially when you can buy my books, and many terrific novels, for $2.99
L.J.
The Sex Club, now only $.99!

[GA Russell]

It has always been my impression that most music file sharing has been kids wanting the new hits.

I wonder what percentage of book file sharing has been of current best sellers, as opposed to backlist items.

I also wonder what percentage is of books that the publishers haven't gotten around to making an eBook of yet.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by sabredog

Well said! This is precisely the way I see it as well.

The music/entertainment industry meanderings and failures should serve as a prime example of what not to do.

What I've been reading though is that the heads of the publishing companies have been talking to the heads of the music/entertainment industry to find out what the failures were. In their view none of it was their fault, it was Apple's fault for controlling the pricing and dictating the pricing. The heads of the music industry aren't going to say it was their fault.

I was listening to a radio interview with Steve Knopper about a year ago where he was discussing his book "Appetite for Self-Destruction: The Spectacular Crash of the Record Industry in the Digital Age". I was amazed at how many parallels there were between the things he was talking about and the publishing industry. He was talking about how he knew the heads of the recording industry and how intelligent and well respected they were and he couldn't understand how they could be so blind. The problem was that they were brilliant at the old way of doing things and the wrong people to lead the way to the digital future. I think it's the exact same thing with the publishing industry. It's too bad that the large publishing companies don't read their own books.

Appetite for Self-Destruction: The Spectacular Crash of the Record Industry in the Digital Age
Can$ 18.80 for the e-book at Amazon
Can$ 7.89 for a new paperback copy

[craig8128]

Originally Posted by Barcey

Appetite for Self-Destruction: The Spectacular Crash of the Record Industry in the Digital Age
Can$ 18.80 for the e-book at Amazon
Can$ 7.89 for a new paperback copy

Oh, the irony!

Craig

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by sabredog

Perhaps Baen have not factored greed and total customer disdain into their pricing and distribution scheme?

I mean a new release ebook for $6 with no DRM, geo restrictions and available in any choice of format any time is not going to last is it? At least, that is what the agency 5 gang would have us believe.

I understand their *pricing scheme* fine (and not having to pay Amazon 30% for distributing their books means that they probably make about the same on a $6 book as they would on a $9. What I don't understand is that they *also* make these books available for free. So you don't have to pay even the $6.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by sabredog

Well said! This is precisely the way I see it as well.

The music/entertainment industry meanderings and failures should serve as a prime example of what not to do.

People keep saying this, but it's not true. E-book publishers may have made their own mistakes but they have *not* made the mistakes that music publishers made.

The mistake music publishers made was that they *did not provide a convenient, legal way to buy digital music*. Not that they charged too much money, or set monopoly prices. They simply did not make the music available at all. Music publishing's problems were *never* about how much they charged for digital downloads, no matter how much people who don't like the cost of e-books would like for it to be.

Once digital music was able to be found, downloaded, and paid for in an easy way, digital music became very successful and piracy became much more of a marginal, niche activity. Note, however, that digital music also used fixed prices of 99c for a single and $9.99 for an album, in most cases.

Amazon, specifically, greatly increased the popularity of e-books by making a large number available, by offering predictable prices, and by instituting a shopping experience that is much easier than iTunes ever was or still is - wireless downloading through a cell network, which for most people in the US means anywhere, at any time. With syncing between devices and the ability to store and redownload books on Amazon's server. (This convenience is probably also the best protection against piracy at the moment).

A lot of people don't like Agency prices, and it may well drive some people to stealing books. It may turn out to be a mistake on the part of the publishers. But even if it is, it's *not at all* the same mistake that music publishers made. And it may not turn out to be a mistake at all, of course.

I do wonder whether Amazon will renew the Agency agreement next April. It's my belief that publishers were able to push it because they believed that Apple would provide a significant counter to Amazon, and that Amazon didn't fight because they were afraid of Apple. Now that Apple has turned out to be a paper tiger as far as e-book selling goes, it's at least possible that Amazon will fight that battle again. Or not...

[thrawn_aj]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I understand their *pricing scheme* fine (and not having to pay Amazon 30% for distributing their books means that they probably make about the same on a $6 book as they would on a $9. What I don't understand is that they *also* make these books available for free. So you don't have to pay even the $6.

This might help explain why - What the bagel man saw; S. Dubner & S. Leavitt, The New York Times Magazine (June 6, 2004).

(The article is not about ebooks, but the principle is the same - If you've noticed, every free book on Baen has a "Donate to free library" link where the "add to cart" or "buy now" would usually be).

[Falcao]

Music industry still have the problem of geo-restriction. This promotes piracy in countries not covered by Amazon, for example.

I have not found any geo-restriction with Amazon (USA). However, some stores like B&N don't sell to people outside the USA.

And we have the market of non-English books. For books in Spanish, booksellers are just beginning to sell e-books and they are setting high prices. So, it's not surprising that piracy is flourishing.