Dangerously e-books: How do I know if my ebooks have been altered?

[Glorfindel]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Re-upload it under a different name, you mean. As you know, we were talking about making changes to the existing file, NOT creating a new file.

All they'd have to do is hack your account

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Oh please. I'll put whipping the MR library into shape on my to-do list, right after I solve the problems in the Middle East and the Ukraine, and do something about world hunger.

I was under the impression that this was something that was so important to you that you had to SHOUT about it and debate with and berate other people on the Internet endlessly. I just made the same suggestion to you that I make to others who are passionate about an issue...do something to change it if you don't like the way it is. To me, this is really starting to feel like a political thread, and on another forum where I'm a moderator, this is my standard response to people when they start to get emotional about a subject. If it's that important to you, do something to change it. If it's not important enough to do something about, it's not important enough to raise your blood pressure about it. (this feels like a political thread because of the level of heat and the amount of rhetoric and hand waving, not because it is a political subject)

In what universe do you live that one cannot talk about a perceived problem unless he or see can personally implement a solution?

In my universe, talking endlessly about a perceived problem without personally doing anything to fix the problem is called "complaining". It can also sometimes be called "whining" by some people.

Shari

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Re-upload it under a different name, you mean. As you know, we were talking about making changes to the existing file, NOT creating a new file.

Making changes to the existing file is exactly what you don't want to do. You want to make a new version of the file...in other words, a new (corrected) edition of the book. Wasn't this whole debate started because of the fear that changes could be made, overwriting the original file? (not that this has been done, mind you...) A new (corrected) or (abridged) or (expanded) version is done all the time...the original file is not, nor should it be, overwritten or deleted.

Shari

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I did not say that at all. I said that the vast majority of the books in our library have not been proofread, and that any of our members could help to improve our library by picking a book - any book you fancy - and proofreading it.

It seems to me that there are a great many people willing to complain, but very, very few who are willing to actually help make the library better, and personally I find this somewhat disappointing.

To compare an original text to an uploaded text is, to me, the same time-wise as being the one to make the uploaded ebook in the first place, so it's really the same thing in my opinion, and without the respect of being the uploader. I have no idea how fast you are at proofreading (or transcribing - whatever you would call the process of creating an ebook to upload) but not everyone is as fast as you.

For instance, let's say I decide to proofread one of your books. Let's say I could read 40 books this year. I have no idea how long it would actually take me to proofread one - checking back and forth between the original text and the upload - but my guess is three to five times as long as it would take me to read one. And then, there may be no errors to correct or only minor errors, or you may not agree with the ones I find and not change it. So for my trouble, I've lost out on reading three to five other books this year from my already comparatively small total of 40 (compared to others around here) and for no real benefit. No thank you.

Granted, I'm not one of the most vehement on the subject and I may be one of the slower readers here, but even if one could read faster than I and were more vehement on the subject, I don't think they should have to volunteer to proofread to be allowed to raise concerns about certain uploads. Hopefully the uploaders derive pleasure from their work, and good for them, but not everyone who likes to read would also even halfway enjoy proofreading and such, or be good at it.

I think, to me anyway, in light of revelations such as from Alex Bell, the point is not that everything should be scrupulously proofread for mistakes, but rather to have a guideline and culture here to encourage people not to purposely change texts, and if they do so to clearly state it.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Re-upload it as a new version in a new thread, yes. There are many examples of this in our library.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I could be, but isn't taking someone else's upload and re-uploading it (even with some changes) considered not very appropriate?

[shalym]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I could be, but isn't taking someone else's upload and re-uploading it (even with some changes) considered not very appropriate?

Why would that not be appropriate? I would say that most, if not all of the books in the Mobileread library were originally uploaded somewhere by someone else. Harry, you would know better than I...do many MR uploaders start from a scan that they personally did, or do they get the file from PG or Archive.org? (or somewhere else)

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

To compare an original text to an uploaded text is, to me, the same time-wise as being the one to make the uploaded ebook in the first place, so it's really the same thing in my opinion, and without the respect of being the uploader. I have no idea how fast you are at proofreading (or transcribing - whatever you would call the process of creating an ebook to upload) but not everyone is as fast as you.

Proofreading is a lot of work. Nobody is saying that it isn't. I average about 10 pages an hour, so that would be 30h of work for a 300 page book. Creating ebooks is dead easy - I can convert the typical PG text into a Mobi and an ePub book in 20 minutes, tops. It's the proofing that takes the time, which is precisely why we need volunteers to do it.

So for my trouble, I've lost out on reading three to five other books this year from my already comparatively small total of 40 (compared to others around here) and for no real benefit. No thank you.

You don't think that helping our community is a benefit? That is a little disappointing to hear, but of course the decision is entirely yours.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

Why would that not be appropriate? I would say that most, if not all of the books in the Mobileread library were originally uploaded somewhere by someone else. Harry, you would know better than I...do many MR uploaders start from a scan that they personally did, or do they get the file from PG or Archive.org? (or somewhere else)

Shari

Yep. Almost everyone starts with someone else's effort. I've created a few books from scratch, but very few.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Re-upload it as a new version in a new thread, yes. There are many examples of this in our library.

And this is totally irrelevant to what was being discussed.

You seem to think that I am supposed to painstakingly proof someone's upload, and if I find mistakes/improvements/editing, first I need to contact the uploader, wait for him or her to decide whether to implement changes, and then upload my own version.

Which does nothing to eliminate the problem of an error-riddled file, or a "new and improved" file. It would just piggyback on someone else's original work and create one more copy that I guess another person is supposed to proofread at some point, and start the process all over again.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

[Billi]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I could be, but isn't taking someone else's upload and re-uploading it (even with some changes) considered not very appropriate?

That's why you should contact the original uploader first.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by shalym

I was under the impression that this was something that was so important to you that you had to SHOUT about it and debate with and berate other people on the Internet endlessly. I just made the same suggestion to you that I make to others who are passionate about an issue...do something to change it if you don't like the way it is. To me, this is really starting to feel like a political thread, and on another forum where I'm a moderator, this is my standard response to people when they start to get emotional about a subject. If it's that important to you, do something to change it. If it's not important enough to do something about, it's not important enough to raise your blood pressure about it. (this feels like a political thread because of the level of heat and the amount of rhetoric and hand waving, not because it is a political subject)

In my universe, talking endlessly about a perceived problem without personally doing anything to fix the problem is called "complaining". It can also sometimes be called "whining" by some people.

Shari

And what are you doing right now?

[shalym]

One of the things that really bothers me about the people making suggestions about changing/creating guidelines is that they are not really doing it in a way that makes a difference to the forum. If you really want to make a change to the forum, you are probably better off making an official request in the Feedback forum at https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13

THAT would also be considered "doing something to help change the situation". I notice, however, that not one of the people who are so upset about this have bothered to even do that.

Shari

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Catlady

And what are you doing right now?

I'm not saying that it's a huge problem for me. You are. If I thought it was a big problem, I would do something about it...either here on the forum, or for my own books in my personal library.

Shari

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by shalym

Why would that not be appropriate? I would say that most, if not all of the books in the Mobileread library were originally uploaded somewhere by someone else. Harry, you would know better than I...do many MR uploaders start from a scan that they personally did, or do they get the file from PG or Archive.org? (or somewhere else)

Shari

There is a big difference between taking a file from PG or the Internet Archive and taking it from an individual uploader here.

I'm sure Harry wouldn't want me to take one of his files, change a bit of formatting, correct a typo, and call it my own and re-upload it. And yet that's exactly what he's now suggesting.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Catlady

And this is totally irrelevant to what was being discussed.

You seem to think that I am supposed to painstakingly proof someone's upload, and if I find mistakes/improvements/editing, first I need to contact the uploader, wait for him or her to decide whether to implement changes, and then upload my own version.

Which does nothing to eliminate the problem of an error-riddled file, or a "new and improved" file. It would just piggyback on someone else's original work and create one more copy that I guess another person is supposed to proofread at some point, and start the process all over again.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Iterative improvement is precisely how good ebooks get created. Some of my Dickens uploads have been revised a dozen times, largely as a result of people telling me about errors. I'm certainly not telling you what you are "supposed to do", but if you care about the fidelity of ebooks as much as you claim to, I find it both surprising and disappointing that you're apparently unwilling to do a stroke of work to actually improve them.