DRM Good or Bad?

[VydorScope]

Frahse,

If I was Steven King, or Tom Clancy... I would not care about this topic at all, DRM or not is not going to impact me much. My books would sell just because my name was on them. Harry Potter is a proof case for this.

If I was complete failure as a writer who wrote drivel, DRM would not matter because no one would want to read my garbage anyways. In fact it might not even get pirated, cause no one would care enough to try. There are legions of proof cases for this, I wont name them but we all know some.

I do not fit in either of those cases. I am an indy author whose books are well liked by a decent percentage of those reading them. My biggest obstacle in selling my work is OBSCURITY, not piracy. The one thing that DRM is good at stopping is causal sharing (i.e. mom giving me a book to read). I personally believe it is this causal sharing that gets unknown authors started. Therefore I see DRM as bad for me, and anyone else in my position. As a proof case for this, my first book is free and has no DRM on it. You know what I have discovered? LOTS of web stores have my book on them, offered for free. All kinds of stores that I have no relationship with are offering it. This means free advertising since the book tells readers where to get the rest of my books from. If my book had DRM on it, I highly doubt most stores would remove the DRM and put it up in their store.

There is no perfect solution to the problem, never will be. But I think those three cases show that DRM is not a help, and could very well be an hindrance to the indy author. That is why I have decided against putting DRM on my books. I do not see a benefit, but I see a potential harm in it.

I do buy books with DRM on them all the time. I like getting my books through the Nook store because its quick, easy, and B&N will keep my books synced across all my devices. I accept DRM a price to pay for that convenience. To me its a minor bump in the road because I know if I ever buy a Kindle Fire, I have the skill and knowledge to move my books over. Till then I am happy living in the Nook ecosystem because it just works.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by frahse

If your eReader dies or you update it, it is not simple to move the DRM file to a new one. A book also might be damaged and made unusable.

True, but knowing how much falling-apart-books I fixed or just read, regardless of their massive lacks in structural integrity this comparison is an anti-eReader at all argument from my POV.

think of the eReader and the DRM files on it as a unit. Just like a large book.

In this case, rather the whole shelves - pack this together with your loose-one-loose-all attitude plus considering how much money sits on shelves of some bibliophiles and we are at the anti eReader argument again.

Until someone doesn't come up with a damn sturdy reader which doesn't need batteries because the very little amount of energy it needs can be generated on-the-fly by reading light the idea you promote -
Let's call it eBook transplants instead of copying - will hardly win friends.

You cannot at this time have a DRM digital file that does everything good that a paper book does, and at the same time make sure that there is just one copy of the file like there will only be one copy of the paper book.

Right about DRM, wrong about copies. Make a textbook expensive enough a must for a university course, go into the library and watch the queues.

So that means that the ordinary reader buying a DRM protected file is making a tradeoff. Giving up something to gain something else. If he considers that the eReader and his eBooks are a single unit, then it is pretty much the same as a large paper book.

(sic) library
Portability./. Fragility, yes.

It's one thing to live with tradeoffs when they lay in the nature of something, compared to having then artificially added like DRM schemes and stuffed down ones throat.
See CD's & mp3: I personally am damn happy that I can store the original discs safely away, while having my music on all devices I want them to be available on.

As I said somewhere already: were there a similar solution for books like data cartridges (the old 8-bit console thingies come in mind - sturdy things) let it be a bastard between a cartridge and SD readonly cards (single books or even series don't need as much space as digital audio)
Having no rewrite ability needed the cards contents could be hardwired like the old cartridges. No rewrite on card means less circuitry too = cheaper than SD.

Were there such a solution to buy this instead of paper as original media and proof of legally clean possession I'd be in. Or possession certificates or whatever reasonable one can come up with without crippling the actual content please.
The geo-restriction troubles would be gone too as a bonus.

The main problem I see with the eBook system today is the insistence that the eBook costs about the same as a paper book.

When people say things like that it becomes easy to disbelieve other things they say. I have never said anything like that. I believe that a eBook should cost half or less than a new hardbound and when the paperback comes out, it should cost half or less than that.

there we are both on the same side of the fence.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by frahse

I suggest a solution, to all the problems some people seem to think DRM brings about, is to think of the eReader and the DRM files on it as a unit. Just like a large book. That will be what most people do. Then you can loan or bequeath your large book as you will.

While it's a bit of a nuisance to transfer ownership of an entire bookshelf instead of a single book, it's certainly possible. But DRM doesn't allow or encourage this. If that concept were accepted by retailers and publishers, it would be easy and legitimate to:

• Buy ~$90 ereader.
• Spend 6 months buying DRM'd books for it, at whichever store it relates to. Grab a lot of freebies & sale bargains, and whatever bestsellers you like.
• Read books voraciously. After all, that's the main purpose of having a device that stores hundreds of books at once.
• Change account password. De-activate reader from account.
• Sell ereader, loaded with books, on ebay or craigslist, for $250; give long list of books included.
• Send note to bookstore(s) saying, "I am done with[list of titles]; please remove them from my account."
• Buy new $90 ereader.

Right now, every ebookstore and BPH insists this is illegal. Some insist it is "copyright infringement," although no unauthorized copies have been made. Others insist it is a violation of the license that doesn't permit allowing one's spouse to read the books on one's reader, much less transfer of ownership of the contents to someone else.

One of the key aspects of paper that hasn't been duplicated by DRM--because of publisher & retailer recalcitrance--is the ability to transfer ownership. Indeed, most publishers don't allow one-time sharing for two weeks; they attempt to use DRM to mean "one purchase = one reader."

Writers don't get popular by being paid by every reader. Writers don't make the jump out of total obscurity by limiting their readership to direct customers.

[no.guru]

Originally Posted by frahse

If Amazon does well...

It's nice to see you remaining on this thread and taking the heat. (By the way, thanks for the K.)

Let me rephrase what I asked here: How does it harm you as an author for another author to give away their works?

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by frahse

The idea that "unprotecting" my work will be a boon to me, is laughable.

... because you think all your readers are thieves and won't abide the law?

Sad I don't know what books you have published, but I sincerely hope I never bought any of them.

This is the attitude towards readers that will keep me away from the author at all costs. Like I would not shop anywhere the clerks will scream at me "shoplifting is illegal" once I have paid.

A book also might be damaged and made unusable.

But an ereader is not ONE book, it's a whole library of books.

And yes, even those might get damaged and unusable, but it's not very likely. But if that would happen (say a fire in my appartement), there's my insurance covering the costs.

An ereader is much more likely to die on me. And DRM will make me have to buy the same kind of ereader again if I want to read the books I haven't had time to read yet. That's ridiculous.

On the other hand DRM's purpose is to prevent multiple (free or cheap or easy to make) copies of a book.

Nope... doesn't... If it would actually work, there would be no pirated books. And everyone who's able to buy an ebook for themselves will be able to find out how to remove DRM and share the book - not saying they want to or will do so, since it's illegal and enough people are honest (if not, music industry would be dead by now).

You cannot at this time have a DRM digital file that does everything good that a paper book does, and at the same time make sure that there is just one copy of the file like there will only be one copy of the paper book.

DRM doesn't do that either. You have to rely on the honesty of the customers. It's the same as with paper books that you could scan and OCR without a problem... only that scanning would take more time - unless you send your book to a company doing that for you for 1 USD...

So that means that the ordinary reader buying a DRM protected file is making a tradeoff. Giving up something to gain something else. If he considers that the eReader and his eBooks are a single unit, then it is pretty much the same as a large paper book.

And who would buy a 90 USD ereader to read a single book?

The ereader is the library, not one single book. And if the ereader dies and DRM makes it impossible to transfer your books, it's not one single book that is lost, it's the whole library.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by no.guru

It's nice to see you remaining on this thread and taking the heat. (By the way, thanks for the K.)

Let me rephrase what I asked here: How does it harm you as an author for another author to give away their works?

Your are welcome to the Karma. You are helping this thread, which I am using as a whetstone to hone the razor edge of my arguments.


I don't think that your question was phrased correctly, since in its current form (just above) the answer is obvious and trivial.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by Jaden

... because you think all your readers are thieves and won't abide the law?

Sad I don't know what books you have published, but I sincerely hope I never bought any of them.

This is the attitude towards readers that will keep me away from the author at all costs. Like I would not shop anywhere the clerks will scream at me "shoplifting is illegal" once I have paid.



But an ereader is not ONE book, it's a whole library of books.

And yes, even those might get damaged and unusable, but it's not very likely. But if that would happen (say a fire in my appartement), there's my insurance covering the costs.

An ereader is much more likely to die on me. And DRM will make me have to buy the same kind of ereader again if I want to read the books I haven't had time to read yet. That's ridiculous.



Nope... doesn't... If it would actually work, there would be no pirated books. And everyone who's able to buy an ebook for themselves will be able to find out how to remove DRM and share the book - not saying they want to or will do so, since it's illegal and enough people are honest (if not, music industry would be dead by now).



DRM doesn't do that either. You have to rely on the honesty of the customers. It's the same as with paper books that you could scan and OCR without a problem... only that scanning would take more time - unless you send your book to a company doing that for you for 1 USD...



And who would buy a 90 USD ereader to read a single book?

The ereader is the library, not one single book. And if the ereader dies and DRM makes it impossible to transfer your books, it's not one single book that is lost, it's the whole library.

I have answered most of your points already and I disagree with what you are saying.

[no.guru]

Originally Posted by frahse

Your are welcome to the Karma. You are helping this thread, which I am using as a whetstone to hone the razor edge of my arguments.


I don't think that your question was phrased correctly, since in its current form (just above) the answer is obvious and trivial.

When I asked the first time (post #463), I copied and pasted your text and added "How do" and "?" to make it a question. You didn't respond.

I reworded it (post #484), and now you say my question isn't phrased correctly, and the answer is obvious and trivial.

Now I understand why you're only an occasional author.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

True, but knowing how much falling-apart-books I fixed or just read, regardless of their massive lacks in structural integrity this comparison is an anti-eReader at all argument from my POV.

In this case, rather the whole shelves - pack this together with your loose-one-loose-all attitude plus considering how much money sits on shelves of some bibliophiles and we are at the anti eReader argument again.

Until someone doesn't come up with a damn sturdy reader which doesn't need batteries because the very little amount of energy it needs can be generated on-the-fly by reading light the idea you promote -
Let's call it eBook transplants instead of copying - will hardly win friends.

Right about DRM, wrong about copies. Make a textbook expensive enough a must for a university course, go into the library and watch the queues.

(sic) library
Portability./. Fragility, yes.

It's one thing to live with tradeoffs when they lay in the nature of something, compared to having then artificially added like DRM schemes and stuffed down ones throat.
See CD's & mp3: I personally am damn happy that I can store the original discs safely away, while having my music on all devices I want them to be available on.

As I said somewhere already: were there a similar solution for books like data cartridges (the old 8-bit console thingies come in mind - sturdy things) let it be a bastard between a cartridge and SD readonly cards (single books or even series don't need as much space as digital audio)
Having no rewrite ability needed the cards contents could be hardwired like the old cartridges. No rewrite on card means less circuitry too = cheaper than SD.

Were there such a solution to buy this instead of paper as original media and proof of legally clean possession I'd be in. Or possession certificates or whatever reasonable one can come up with without crippling the actual content please.
The geo-restriction troubles would be gone too as a bonus.

there we are both on the same side of the fence.

First I thank you for taking time to analyze in detail what I have said and comment on it.
I realize that my position is in the minority here at this forum for this is the kind of place where people gather that do know all about the techniques on breaking DRM or obtaining free books online. They are also very verbal to the point of abrasiveness sometimes on their reasons and their right to circumvent what publishers, distributors and authors have done to protect copyrighted material.

I have expressed my own beliefs as succinctly as possible though of course it is possible to delve into more detail on most any point.

It appears to me that we are at a standoff.

Some and in fact many of those here at MR will continue to remove DRM and give all sorts of reasons why they do it. They will continue to complain mightily, and in my mind's eye I can visualize rent garments, ashes, sack cloth and some chest beating as well, and will grow more vehement as DRM techniques including the new watermarking "process" are refined and toughened.

On the other hand most all the significant authors and many other authors including myself and most if not all significant publishers will continue to sell their wares with DRM in one form or another. Sometimes the authors might give away samples or even sell series without DRM for advertising is something most of us understand.

The majority of the public will buy the DRM protected books.

That is the way it is, and will be in the foreseeable future.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by no.guru

--removed for clarity--

How does it harm you as an author for another author to give away their works?

Do you really not understand what you are asking/saying?

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by frahse

I have answered most of your points already and I disagree with what you are saying.

Feel free to disagree and not answer - doesn't make your points valid, though.

But how does quoting me in full to tell me that you will go on ignoring what I say help this thread?

[no.guru]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Feel free to disagree and not answer - doesn't make your points valid, though.

But how does quoting me in full to tell me that you will go on ignoring what I say help this thread?

He/she isn't interested in helping the thread or in honest and open debate,

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by frahse

On the other hand most all the significant authors and many other authors including myself and most if not all significant publishers will continue to sell their wares with DRM in one form or another. Sometimes the authors might give away samples or even sell series without DRM for advertising is something most of us understand.

The majority of the public will buy the DRM protected books.

That is the way it is, and will be in the foreseeable future.

I agree:

1) Big name authors do not care either way, presence or lack of DRM does not impact them in any significant way. So most of them will not fight it.

2) Big Media Publishers have always believed in copy protection/drm/etc, and show no indication that they will ever change. So they will fight to keep it.

3) Most e-book readers do not ever have any problems when they have DRM books, and just like the speed, ease and convenience of buying their books from the store built in to their device. So they will not fight it.

4) The only person that is REALLY hurt by DRM is the new indy author who has the option to release DRM free should they so choose, so not very many of them will care. There will be the vocal ones (i.e. this thread) but not enough to make a real difference.


So in the end you have almost no one fighting it, and the big money players fighting full force to keep it. It is here to stay for the foreseeable future. The only way that will change is if DRM becomes more oppressive to the READERS such that they are mobilized against it. DRM is transparent enough that, that is not likely to happen.

The key place where I disagree with frahse is that I feel I, and I have shown clearly my reasons (which none have contested) that DRM hurts the new indy authors, and they are better off with out it. I do not see how DRM helps anyone, but I do see that the big media houses think it does.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Feel free to disagree and not answer - doesn't make your points valid, though.

But how does quoting me in full to tell me that you will go on ignoring what I say help this thread?

It is a limited time and resources matter.

[HansTWN]

Even though I think that Frahse is shooting himself in the foot, I think everything that can be said in this context has been said, several times over. Time to agree to disagree and move on before things get nasty.