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Old 10-24-2010, 08:27 PM   #436
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That is essentially the same as saying that only non-sinners can go to Church. Everyone makes mistakes, especially when younger. That doesn't mean they can't grow up and stop making those mistakes. Lawbreaking is lawbreaking. It doesn't matter whether it's a book or an automobile; if you take something that isn't yours, it shows disrespect for the rights of others and concern only for yourself. Just because the person calling you on breaking the law isn't perfect doesn't exonerate you from doing the same.

I swear you are such a stitch! I will admit you have taken rationalization for lawbreaking in a direction that I haven't seen here yet.
Nice duck of the question regarding how law-abiding the people here who are taking others to task, are in their own lives regarding laws that are commonly broken.

You see, the error you keep making is that you see my explanation and those of others as "rationalizations" because they don't agree with your particular POV regarding ethics and the law. So they must be a "rationalization" for lawbreaking because they are not part of the ethics of the particular group you surround yourself with.

I would posit that an argument could just as easily be made against what you post by saying that your statements are just a "rationalization" of why you do not question rules and regulations that are seemingly not made, and are not being used, for the benefit of the greater good - and are instead implying "it is a law and it must be obeyed otherwise the social fabric of the nation will disintegrate". If one's primary POV is "question authority", then just because a law has been passed doesn't mean that it is a good law or that it should even be obeyed. And a law about copyright violations should not even be compared to rape, murder, house-breaking, whatever; to do so is just making a facile argument.

If there is one thing I've learned in life, is that not everyone shares the same set of ethics. We like to think that they do, but they don't. Each person's set is created by their lives and influences. The acceptability of one particular set over the other depends upon what group of people one is in. It is only when we are among others who don't think the way "we" do are our own values called into question. When that happens, some people try to understand the other POV, while others just condemn it for being different from theirs.
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:51 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by Xanthe View Post
Nice duck of the question regarding how law-abiding the people here who are taking others to task, are in their own lives regarding laws that are commonly broken.

You see, the error you keep making is that you see my explanation and those of others as "rationalizations" because they don't agree with your particular POV regarding ethics and the law. So they must be a "rationalization" for lawbreaking because they are not part of the ethics of the particular group you surround yourself with.

I would posit that an argument could just as easily be made against what you post by saying that your statements are just a "rationalization" of why you do not question rules and regulations that are seemingly not made, and are not being used, for the benefit of the greater good - and are instead implying "it is a law and it must be obeyed otherwise the social fabric of the nation will disintegrate". If one's primary POV is "question authority", then just because a law has been passed doesn't mean that it is a good law or that it should even be obeyed. And a law about copyright violations should not even be compared to rape, murder, house-breaking, whatever; to do so is just making a facile argument.

If there is one thing I've learned in life, is that not everyone shares the same set of ethics. We like to think that they do, but they don't. Each person's set is created by their lives and influences. The acceptability of one particular set over the other depends upon what group of people one is in. It is only when we are among others who don't think the way "we" do are our own values called into question. When that happens, some people try to understand the other POV, while others just condemn it for being different from theirs.
What duck? It simply doesn't matter if the accusers aren't perfect. If something is wrong, it is wrong. By your reasoning, a person arrested for murder could get off because the arresting officer cheated on his income taxes. Trying to fob off the guilt to someone else because they aren't perfect isn't going to cut it.

Your arguments are classic textbook rationalization. When you live in a society, you have to live by the rules of society whether you like it or not and whether you think the rule is right, wrong or too insignificant to matter. To do anything else will lead to anarchy. If you can't accept the rules of the society, then either expect to have to pay the consequences for breaking the rules or leave.
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Old 10-24-2010, 09:11 PM   #438
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Sadly all too true, and yet refreshing at the same time. It would be a very dull world if everyone had the same view on everything. Most people have at least some ethics in common though. I mean the majority of us don't go out ala Deathwish looking to shoot muggers for example, although it could be argued that the crime rate might decline if that was the case. Still society says x is right and y is wrong and most of us agree to follow 'most' of the rules. And there have always been those who look down on others for being different and departing from what they consider 'the right way' of doing things. Of course those people forget that what they consider 'the right way' of doing x might be considered the wrong way of going about it by still another group. We are an endlessly contradictory species.

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If there is one thing I've learned in life, is that not everyone shares the same set of ethics. We like to think that they do, but they don't. Each person's set is created by their lives and influences. The acceptability of one particular set over the other depends upon what group of people one is in. It is only when we are among others who don't think the way "we" do are our own values called into question. When that happens, some people try to understand the other POV, while others just condemn it for being different from theirs.
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Old 10-24-2010, 09:13 PM   #439
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When you live in a society, you have to live by the rules of society whether you like it or not and whether you think the rule is right, wrong or too insignificant to matter.
Uhm... you live in United States, right? There was a small issue of rebellion once upon a time in that part of the world...
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Old 10-24-2010, 09:23 PM   #440
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Uhm... you live in United States, right? There was a small issue of rebellion once upon a time in that part of the world...
So? I wasn't around back then.
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Old 10-24-2010, 09:33 PM   #441
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So? I wasn't around back then.
Nothing, nothing. Honest! I live in Canada and believe in the system.

I always thought that canonization of that little rebellion is a source of eternal conflict when it comes to the rules of society for most of your compatriots. You now, George the Fi... Washington did not give a damn about the rules, why should I?
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Old 10-24-2010, 09:42 PM   #442
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Nothing, nothing. Honest! I live in Canada and believe in the system.

I always thought that canonization of that little rebellion is a source of eternal conflict when it comes to the rules of society for most of your compatriots. You now, George the Fi... Washington did not give a damn about the rules, why should I?
Seriously? You really believe that since little Georgie did something naughty you can too? Grow up!
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Old 10-24-2010, 09:44 PM   #443
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Seriously? You really believe that since little Georgie did something naughty you can too? Grow up!
Yes, I see your point. I should have added quotation marks for the last sentence of my previous post.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:18 PM   #444
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History abounds with examples that prove the folly in claiming something to be immoral or unethical simply because it is illegal.

I would hate to think anyone believed it was immoral to help a slave escape, to harbor a Jew, for our Founding Fathers to rebel, to walk backwards eating ice cream, or for a woman to have more than six BOBs.

Laws are made and revoked by politicians, often under the influence of immoral, self-interested lobbies. They vary between countries, including copyright and DMCA laws.

Determining what is ethical requires much deeper thought than looking up the current statutes.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:47 PM   #445
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Amazing how this thread goes on and on and on..... I've barely read 1% of it, so I suspect my feelings have been mentioned by others.

We know the law. And laws are not always adhered to -- we have probably all run a red light or jaywalked in our lifetime. I think the question is what is fair, and what hurts people the least.

First off, DRM stripping purchased ebooks. I think that definitely falls into fair use (even if the law currently says otherwise). The fact that my purchased ebook is crippled in such a way that I cannot read it on another vendor's e-reader, or on a system not supported like Linux, is just appalling. And, even if it's technically against the law, I am not hurting anyone if I strip the DRM for my own personal use only. I find this to be the same as buying a physical book, a radio, a piece of furniture or anything else I own and taking it apart, if I wanted to. If I recall correctly, we had similar laws about recording programs on VCR's but as long as no one was reselling the tapes, it was not pursued. And eventually the laws changed, if memory serves. Lets hope that the law catches up in this area, one day.

Second, downloading ebooks of physical books I already own (especially ones that don't have a vendor ebook format, yet). Again, I am not hurting anyone here except the publishers who want to double dip into my purchase. I feel that publishers should do what the music and movie industries have already done, which is offer an ebook version with every hardcover purchase. Problem solved there. As for ebooks that the publishers don't offer, I'm not hurting sales that don't exist so I don't see the harm there, either. I would love to see legitimate ebooks of out-of-print titles and I do ask for them in places like Amazon, so maybe in the future this will be less of a problem.

Third, downloading ebooks just because I want something for free. I don't see an ethical dilemma there, that's piracy pure and simple. If you want the book badly enough, chalk up the dough for the ebook or the paperback.

Last edited by roebeet; 10-24-2010 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:48 PM   #446
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If the book cost a dollar I still would not want it to expired for at least 6 months.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:54 PM   #447
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Talk about rhetorical tricks. Either that is what you are employing or you completely missed my point. Your post was so poorly constructed I had no clue what you were talking about.
Well, I can't dumb it down any further. We appear to be at an impasse

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And apparently you also have comprehension problems since I never said anything wasn't debatable. I asked what it was you considered to not be debatable.
*sigh* at least read your own words if not mine . Here it is:

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Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post
You have lost me here. First, what is debatable here? [emph. mine.] There is only one exemption to DMCA that allows breaking DRM on an e-book: that is to allow the read-aloud function of a reader work but only if there is a copy already available that would permit that. It's a very narrow exemption.
Unless that was meant to be a variation of standard English that I'm not familiar with ...


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As far as exemption #6 goes, it seems pretty clear to me. There was an entire thread on here. Look it up.

The rest of what you wrote is so full of misquoting, quoting out of context, wandering off topic, etc, I'm not even going to waste time trying to sort it out [emph. mine]. I don't mind arguing with someone with signs of intelligence but you? I think not.
In other words - "nana nana nana, I can't hear you"
Golly gee wilkies, there are more graceful ways to back out of an argument ya know?
Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Oh and "misquoting, quoting out of context"?
If you take all your quotes from my post and lay them one after the other without changing order or adding anything, you will recreate your ENTIRE POST minus the last two sentences (only because I got bored by that point) . Now I've seen everything! "Misquoting". OMG - thanks for that belly laugh .

Last edited by thrawn_aj; 10-24-2010 at 11:16 PM. Reason: [emph. in quote and some additions]
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:10 PM   #448
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How much time until somebody come and throw the "more rationalizing" angle?

Just asking

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Originally Posted by roebeet View Post
Amazing how this thread goes on and on and on..... I've barely read 1% of it, so I suspect my feelings have been mentioned by others.

We know the law. And laws are not always adhered to -- we have probably all run a red light or jaywalked in our lifetime. I think the question is what is fair, and what hurts people the least.

First off, DRM stripping purchased ebooks. I think that definitely falls into fair use (even if the law currently says otherwise). The fact that my purchased ebook is crippled in such a way that I cannot read it on another vendor's e-reader, or on a system not supported like Linux, is just appalling. And, even if it's technically against the law, I am not hurting anyone if I strip the DRM for my own personal use only. I find this to be the same as buying a physical book, a radio, a piece of furniture or anything else I own and taking it apart, if I wanted to. If I recall correctly, we had similar laws about recording programs on VCR's but as long as no one was reselling the tapes, it was not pursued. And eventually the laws changed, if memory serves. Lets hope that the law catches up in this area, one day.

Second, downloading ebooks of physical books I already own (especially ones that don't have a vendor ebook format, yet). Again, I am not hurting anyone here except the publishers who want to double dip into my purchase. I feel that publishers should do what the music and movie industries have already done, which is offer an ebook version with every hardcover purchase. Problem solved there. As for ebooks that the publishers don't offer, I'm not hurting sales that don't exist so I don't see the harm there, either. I would love to see legitimate ebooks of out-of-print titles and I do ask for them in places like Amazon, so maybe in the future this will be less of a problem.

Third, downloading ebooks just because I want something for free. I don't see an ethical dilemma there, that's piracy pure and simple. If you want the book badly enough, chalk up the dough for the ebook or the paperback.
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:17 PM   #449
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How much time until somebody come and throw the "more rationalizing" angle?

Just asking
Not too much time, if the previous pages I've read are any indication.

And that's cool - people can rant all they want that I'm delusional in my thinking. It's not going to change my perception of what's fair. As long as the author (or their estate) gets his or her fair share from my original purchase, that's what's important.

EDIT: Of course, they don't get anything with a used pBook purchase, but that's another argument entirely.

Last edited by roebeet; 10-24-2010 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:29 PM   #450
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By the way, all this time, I've been giving posters the benefit of the doubt when it comes to things like "follow the seller's terms or don't buy the book". Well, just out of curiosity, I decided to go look up what the all-important "seller's terms" are for common booksellers.

Amazon of course explicitly warns against breaking DRM in its terms so that's fine. Since I have a nook, I was more curious about B&N and wouldn't you know it - I couldn't find anything (even remotely) to this effect on their site. Of course, I may have just missed it. Can some moral soul please direct me to it? I have this sudden urge to print out the terms, tape them to the wall and pray to them before I go to bed each night. If only I could find the DRM hellfire clause, it would make my new theology complete ... . That should teach me to take such statements on good faith .

For your reference, the only thing I found about drm on the entire B&N site is here . Look for this section - "What does DRM mean, and how will it affect my eBook ownership?" It seems that (barring any extra information I missed), I've followed every single term set forth by B&N. Awww, and here I was - feeling all rebellious and stuff .

I repeat - any more information is welcome .

Last edited by thrawn_aj; 10-24-2010 at 11:35 PM. Reason: added a conclusion before the last line.
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