Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear - Page 3

recluse · 09-19-2010, 04:16 AM

I don't view atheists as eccentric, despite some questionable outbursts.
Their beliefs bring them comfort.
"You are not alone."
The whole point behind religon, to my way of thinking.
What it boils down to is that religon, or lack thereof, isn't the problem.
It's the people who use it for their own ends that are.

nohmi2 · 09-19-2010, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by recluse

I don't view atheists as eccentric, despite some questionable outbursts.
Their beliefs bring them comfort.
"You are not alone."
The whole point behind religon, to my way of thinking.
What it boils down to is that religon, or lack thereof, isn't the problem.
It's the people who use it for their own ends that are.

Very, very well said.

Cheers.

Sparrow · 09-19-2010, 05:42 AM

The Catholic church is prepared to baptise aliens.

"The discovery of aliens would raise huge theological problems for the Roman Catholic church that would make the debate over women priests, clerical abstinence and contraception pale into insignificance. "

I've often wondered if an advanced alien species would be deemed to have been made in the image of God, as mankind is supposed to be.

I guess 'made in the image of' is open to a range of interpretations.

montsnmags · 09-19-2010, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

The Catholic church is prepared to baptise aliens.

"The discovery of aliens would raise huge theological problems for the Roman Catholic church that would make the debate over women priests, clerical abstinence and contraception pale into insignificance. "

I've often wondered if an advanced alien species would be deemed to have been made in the image of God, as mankind is supposed to be.

I guess 'made in the image of' is open to a range of interpretations.

Have you read The Sparrow and Children of God by Mary Doria Russell. I didn't much like them(*), but they are normally given fairly high praise, addressing just such as the above.

Cheers,
Marc
(* My dislike is more subjective than based on "quality" issues)

HarryT · 09-19-2010, 06:50 AM

This is actually rather an old question. When it was discovered that the stars were in fact other "suns", back in the 18th century, this very question was debated at length by the Catholic Church, and an official ruling made that they did "cover" aliens on other worlds.

ardeegee · 09-19-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by recluse

There is a cake tin. Some believe there is a cake in the tin. Others believe the tin is empty. Until the tin is opened and the contents, or lack thereof are revealed, all either side has is their belief.

Schrodinger's Cake may or may not in concept be a reasonable analogy for the philosophical idea that there is some sort of nebulous, undefined creator, but then again, there are tests for specific claims of the cake hypothesis.

A dialog:

Cakeist: There's a Cake in that tin.

Acakeist: What, really? (Picks up tin, gives it a shake) Nothing moving in there.

Cakeist: The Cake is wrapped in tissue paper.

Acakeist: It feels pretty light.

Cakeist: It's an angel food Cake.

Acakeist: But the label says "fruit cake!"

Cakeist: Translation error. If you read the original label, it would say "angel food Cake."

Acakeist: Hey, look, there's a scale! (Weighs tin.) Hm. 200 grams. That's no more than an empty tin would weigh. There can't be a cake in there!

Cakeist: The scale is wrong.

Acakeist: Nope, the tag show's that it has just been calibrated.

Cakeist: The men who built the scale just hate The Cake. If they were true Cakeists, they would know that their "scale theory" is flawed.

Acakeist: Okay, let's change the subject-- how old a cake is this?

Cakeist: It was made fresh yesterday.

Acakeist: But the tin is covered in dust! And the table around it! There's this ring of clean where I picked up the tin!

Cakeist: The dust was created at the same time as the cake to give the appearance of age.

Acakeist: Why?

Cakeist: It is not my place to question The Will of The Cake, but it must play some part in The Cake's plan.

Acakeist: Oh, look, a surveillance camera. Let's look at the tapes! (Goes through a month's worth of archives.) Heck, that tin has been here all month!

Cakeist: The men who built the video camera just hate The Cake. If they were true Cakeists, they would know that their "video camera theory" is flawed. Any true history can not be in contradiction with a Young Cake.

Acakeist: Oh, wait-- I found this under a tape-- it is a receipt-- one tin of fruit cake-- bought 6 weeks ago!

Cakeist: That receipt is a lie engineered by The Custard.

Sparrow · 09-19-2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montsnmags

Have you read The Sparrow and Children of God by Mary Doria Russell. I didn't much like them(*), but they are normally given fairly high praise, addressing just such as the above.

Cheers,
Marc
(* My dislike is more subjective than based on "quality" issues)

No I haven't read them - thank you for the head's up, I'll keep an eye out for them.
(Superb title that first one's got.

)

ardeegee · 09-19-2010, 01:41 PM

Since the pot is being thoroughly stirred anyway:

And, the type of moron that leads to the labeling of morons as morons:

http://www.atheist.ie/2010/09/gorill...ious-nonsense/

WT Sharpe · 09-19-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PKFFW

An article I found interesting after the recent spat of threads about science v religion that have devolved into argumentative name calling and people questioning the intelligence of others.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1225924203791

Cheers,
PKFFW

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Also, here's the Dawkins debate where he was so "awful."

I agree that atheists are sometimes overbearing, but as the videos of the referenced debate ardegee posted shows, the author of the article in The Daily Telegraph fails to make his case against Dawkins. There was no bullying in evidence by Dawkins, just soft-spoken and well reasoned argument.

As for those who imply that all believers somehow lack intelligence or discernment, I have to disagree. No one knows how the universe came to be, but to assume it had a cause, and to suppose that intelligence was involved in the causation, poses no contradiction with known facts.

It's when the traditional attributes of God are ascribed to the proposed Creator that contradictions arise. Attributes such as omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence have long posed a problem for believers. In a quote ascribed to Epicurus (341–270 B.C.E.), the problem of evil is summed up thus:

Quote:

.....Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Personally, I think that if this Universe has or had a creator, the creator was more of an experimental scientist than an all-knowing and all-powerful deity, for the Universe seems to be more in the nature of an ongoing experiment rather than a finished and perfected work.

<><><>

Those who are curious to see how rational their views of God are may like to check out The Philosophers' Magazine's "Battleground God" at http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.php. Sure, it isn't the final word on one's rationality, but is is a fun quiz. I took it years ago and if I remember correctly I answered all but one of the questions "correctly."

HarryT · 09-19-2010, 02:24 PM

That's an extremely thought-provoking quiz. Thank you for posting the link. I thought that I had a pretty consistent world view, but I took three "hits" there.

GlennD · 09-19-2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

The Catholic church is prepared to baptise aliens.

"The discovery of aliens would raise huge theological problems for the Roman Catholic church that would make the debate over women priests, clerical abstinence and contraception pale into insignificance. "

I've often wondered if an advanced alien species would be deemed to have been made in the image of God, as mankind is supposed to be.

I guess 'made in the image of' is open to a range of interpretations.

That's assuming the aliens look nothing like human beings. Suppose they land and look just like us? That would cause an equal tizzy and throw some weight behind intelligent design.

Greg Anos · 09-19-2010, 02:53 PM

"Beliefs get in the way of learning"

- Lazarus Long

ShortNCuddlyAm · 09-19-2010, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Those who are curious to see how rational their views of God are may like to check out The Philosophers' Magazine's "Battleground God" at http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.php. Sure, it isn't the final word on one's rationality, but is is a fun quiz. I took it years ago and if I remember correctly I answered all but one of the questions "correctly."

Interesting quiz. My views are consistent although I did bite one bullet (it would have been illogical (to me) to say anything that has the right to be called god has the power to do anything, and then say they couldn't then make 1+1=72, however irrational that may be)

ShortNCuddlyAm · 09-19-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

"Beliefs get in the way of learning"

- Lazarus Long

A very true quote, imo

Joebill · 09-19-2010, 03:02 PM

I have no problem with anyone protesting a religious person, or non-religious person, arriving and getting a parade.

I go somewhere between Christian and agnostic.

There are times where I have to say to one or the other, "Okay, where did you read that ? Really ? Are you sure ?"

If someone wants to believe in the Fantastic Spaghetti Monster, I don't care.

It is when someone distorts whatever they say they believe in, and uses that as an excuse to attack me physically or financially, then I dislike what is going on.

Otherwise, I am a 'live and let live' sort of person.

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09-19-2010, 04:16 AM	#31
recluse Banned Posts: 3,724 Karma: 535488 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: the Mortuary Device: Kindle 2	I don't view atheists as eccentric, despite some questionable outbursts. Their beliefs bring them comfort. "You are not alone." The whole point behind religon, to my way of thinking. What it boils down to is that religon, or lack thereof, isn't the problem. It's the people who use it for their own ends that are.

09-19-2010, 05:42 AM	#33
Sparrow Wizard Posts: 4,395 Karma: 1358132 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Device: Palm TX, CyBook Gen3	The Catholic church is prepared to baptise aliens. "The discovery of aliens would raise huge theological problems for the Roman Catholic church that would make the debate over women priests, clerical abstinence and contraception pale into insignificance. " I've often wondered if an advanced alien species would be deemed to have been made in the image of God, as mankind is supposed to be. I guess 'made in the image of' is open to a range of interpretations.

09-19-2010, 06:50 AM	#35
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	This is actually rather an old question. When it was discovered that the stars were in fact other "suns", back in the 18th century, this very question was debated at length by the Catholic Church, and an official ruling made that they did "cover" aliens on other worlds.

09-19-2010, 01:41 PM	#38
ardeegee Maratus speciosus butt Posts: 3,292 Karma: 1162698 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-350	Since the pot is being thoroughly stirred anyway: And, the type of moron that leads to the labeling of morons as morons: http://www.atheist.ie/2010/09/gorill...ious-nonsense/

09-19-2010, 02:24 PM	#40
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	That's an extremely thought-provoking quiz. Thank you for posting the link. I thought that I had a pretty consistent world view, but I took three "hits" there.

09-19-2010, 02:53 PM	#42
Greg Anos Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,490 Karma: 37057604 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Pocketbook	"Beliefs get in the way of learning" - Lazarus Long

09-19-2010, 03:02 PM	#45
Joebill Fanatic Posts: 517 Karma: 459442 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Alpha Centauri's Library of Alexandria Device: Pandigital Novel	I have no problem with anyone protesting a religious person, or non-religious person, arriving and getting a parade. I go somewhere between Christian and agnostic. There are times where I have to say to one or the other, "Okay, where did you read that ? Really ? Are you sure ?" If someone wants to believe in the Fantastic Spaghetti Monster, I don't care. It is when someone distorts whatever they say they believe in, and uses that as an excuse to attack me physically or financially, then I dislike what is going on. Otherwise, I am a 'live and let live' sort of person.

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