Man! I hate self promoted books!

[plumboz]

Originally Posted by tompe

As a reader the publishing industry do a good job selecting books that are readable and well written. Since I do not have time to read all the books I want to read that are published the traditional way I do not see why I should take the chance to read something self-published.

And of course I agree that it is all consumer based, as it should be. Every person makes their purchasing (and time allocation) decisions based on criteria that make sense to the individual. You choose not to even consider self published work.

However, personal status as self published author aside, may I point out that simply dismissing all self published work as unworthy of consideration is exactly like saying any musician or group that hasn't got a current recording contract must lack musical chops, taste, stage presence, whatever. And that just isn't the case. Ever seen a bar band that could rock the house all night? Or a jazz pianist with a distinctive style and amazing range? Or a guy playing fingerstyle guitar to an appreciative and discerning crowd in Central Park like my family and I did last summer? Sure, there were kazoo players of maximum volume and minimal appeal just around a tree-lined corner, but the people found the guy ripping up the fretboard on his battered Guild. I doubt if he had a recording contract at the time. Just a guitar case that was slowly filling with dollar bills. And a plastic bin that was already sold of his days allotment of CD's. I still feel badly that I didn't ask his name so I could Google him and see how I could buy his music once I got home to AZ.

It is inescapably true that much of what is self published is of poor quality. It is also true that "traditional" publishing offers up a lot of dreck. Nicely packaged, occasionally well edited dreck, but dreck nonetheless. Just like a lot of the big music companies.

Changes are happening, that too is undeniable, and change always means things are bound to be messy for a while. But ultimately what we have here, in both music and writing, is the opportunity for the artist to connect directly with the consumer. No committees of skittish marketing experts fresh from their latest fifty lashes because of a big advance that didn't pay off making their timid decisions based almost entirely on "could this endanger my bonus?" can keep a book from seeing the light of day. And once it's out there, if there is an audience, and that audience has an opportunity to hear about that book, then they make the decision regarding its worth.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by plumboz

However, personal status as self published author aside, may I point out that simply dismissing all self published work as unworthy of consideration is exactly like saying any musician or group that hasn't got a current recording contract must lack musical chops, taste, stage presence, whatever.

But that was not why what I said. I said that I choose books in a way that minimize the risk that I am wasting my time. And for now that means that I only choose from traditionally published books.

I assume that if somebody whose opinion I really trust really recommends a self published book then I will read it. But that is probably the only case now.

And I feel that t he comparison to music is totally irrelevant since for work that are not obvious crap you have to spend much less time for music than for a book before deciding if it was bad or not.

Can you give some example of well edited dreck?

All examples I can think of is not well edited like late Clancy books that are not edited at all.

[plumboz]

Hi Tommy,

I wasn't trying to get into an argument about how people make their purchasing decisions. Whatever works for you or me or whoever is just peachy. But I do think that there is a real similarity between what began happening several years ago in the way many musicians make and market their music, whether it is because they couldn't get a recording contract, or because they just wanted to have more control over their own careers, and the options opening up for writers and readers.

Best,
Alan

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Hitech_luddite

I have yet to give a 5*review to any book on Smashwords. Like any cataloging system the 5* rating system popularized by recent editions of Windows, is reductive. There are a variety of criteria by which a book can be judged but in my experience the majority of people use only one - the plotline. They don't review the book, they rate the plot which leads to an unrealistically high rating much of the time.

I've recently read two books from smashwords with poor formatting. One was well-written, good plot & characters, and I believe professionally edited... by someone who's willing to put multiple lines of conversation in the same paragraph. (I went back to check the other formats; at first I thought something in the conversion process removed the paragraph breaks. I suppose it's possible that's what happened, but it's consistent across several filetypes.) I want to write a review but find myself unsure how to begin or what to say. Or how many stars to give a book when I liked the story itself, and found the characters believable & compelling, but the formatting kept throwing me out of the book.

Another book was... awful. I'd've given up at page two, except I couldn't believe it would stay that bad. I don't think I'd ever seen a novel that didn't consistently capitalize the word "I;" I was just fascinated by the sheer amount of misspelled words, bad punctuation, and erratic capitalization. It's the kind of bad I'd feel bad posting a 1-star review for because I suspect it's some teenager's first try at writing (at least, I hope that's what it is).

If you look at Smashwords reviews the majority of people write little more than a line, yet it is the review not the rating which tells the full story. I try to never write less than a paragraph, sometimes several, and when I read the reviews I look for people who have taken into account things like dialog, characterization, imagery and weigh their opinions higher than those who just say how much they enjoyed the story.

I agree, it is not easy to write a negative review. We humans are fragile things and our egos are easily hurt. I wrote a review the other week that took me half a day because I wanted to be balanced and reflect the strengths and weaknesses of the book and because it had received nothing but praise from all the other reviewers. Within an hour the author had unpublished the book. I felt extremely guilty.

I don't know if I'd feel guilty if that happened if I posted a negative review about the book I mentioned. It's awful. Really awful. OTOH, it's free, and the awfulness is apparent from the very beginning; I could potentially post a very simple review mentioning that it continues as it begins, and that's enough warning for people to know whether to bother reading it. I want to post something like "If the synopsis bothered you but you downloaded anyway (maybe you liked the picture), and you didn't like reading the first six pages, just walk away; no, it doesn't get better later. If you found yourself fascinated by the unrealistic characters and incredibly thin plot, and entertained by the random grammar, have as much fun with it as you can stand."

[jaxx6166]

I agree with most of the points mentioned here. If I had the time or the money I'd love to spend some time with a few unknown authors.

Looks like there are some others who feel strongly that self published authors should at least polish their works. If I can grab some free time (after these two books are done) anyone else want to work on a review or three with me? We can be the MR gatekeepers

I mean, how many members does this place have now? And it seems like more and more are drifting in to spam and run. May as well give them at least thirty seconds of their 15 minutes of fame. . .

[banjobama]

Maybe we should start a blog for reviews.

I have my own, but it would be nice to have one that many people had posting privileges at so it would stay fresh. Would anyone be interested in doing this?

I guess it's not any different than posting a review at the place where the book was purchased. If it was a blog, we could put other stuff there too, I guess.

[jaxx6166]

The problem I'm finding with SW is people are too damn lazy to post a review. I see similar things on iTunes now too. You'll be lucky to get a star, at least apple asks you to rate every time you kill an app.

And the other issue with bookstore reviews is you really don't know who the reviewer is. Probably the same problem you'd have on the blog, but at least I know I'm not related to Karl Klein

If I can actually get some work done on the VP story I'll look into a community blog thing. Should we get this up and running, I'm probably going to exclusively focus on the MR self promos for a while. Mainly because there's so much crap here, and those that promote at this site at least have some grasp of language..

Whether it's Klingon or Korean, or even teen talk, at least it's better than dredging through more muck than my small shovel can handle.

[Hitech_luddite]

Such a project sounds like it has merits though given the sheer volume of new books, particularly self-published, being churned out this could be very time-consuming. It would take some time for a site like that to get a reputation, particularly as a lot of authors would be resistant as it wouldn't be offering them the five star reviews they are used to elsewhere. You therefore couldn't rely on the authors to publicize it. I think there is a demand for more honest and detailed reviews than many of those available at the point of sale and the idea could catch on, and prove very successful. It could be a slow uphill climb though.

[DixieGal]

You guys guilted me into catching up on my Smashwords reviews. All 5 star reviews, because everything I've read lately has WOW'd me.

(Get Wesley Allison's three book series NOW! 1. The Voyage of the Minotaur. 2. The Dark and Forbidding Land. 3. The Drache Girl.)

I can't bring myself to give a bad review. I once trashed a MR book club book that I hated, then found out that the author was a member. I felt just awful about being mean. Ever since, I have just PM'd with the author and discussed it with them.

Are you all keeping up with the "Let's Get Some Action Going! What's Everyone Reading" thread. I pretty much post most of what I am reading there. If it is terrific, I'll tell you. If it isn't, well, there will probably only be a title or something.

All of the best books that I have read this year have been by MR authors. It is phenominal that we have such talent here.

[BexBits]

Originally Posted by banjobama

Maybe we should start a blog for reviews.

I have my own, but it would be nice to have one that many people had posting privileges at so it would stay fresh. Would anyone be interested in doing this?

I would. I've been turning over similar ideas but trying to figure out how to make it work and not just be a duplicate of other efforts (such as yours.) A group effort focused on SW (and perhaps those works publicized here at MR) would be a nifty way to frame it up.

[jaxx6166]

There are a few blogs that rarely will cover an indie or self pub. I used to have a couple of them bookmarked. I found "The Second Coming" through Pat's Fantasy Hotlist.

An uphill climb though would be kind of fun. I always love a good challenge. I think the merits outweigh the difficulties we'd experience from resistance.

But, in the end, I'd like to think that all people are good and don't take criticism to heart. I'd love to believe that pointing out flaws in their works would make them strive to make things better.

And then with the on-the-fly nature of the craft, they could read the review and fix their errors and maybe things would be better.

Fantasybookreviews (I think that's the name of the site) has a revolving door of critics and a couple of household reviewers that work for them. It's more of a concerted team effort than some of the other one man dog and pony shows

[banjobama]

Originally Posted by BexBits

I would. I've been turning over similar ideas but trying to figure out how to make it work and not just be a duplicate of other efforts (such as yours.) A group effort focused on SW (and perhaps those works publicized here at MR) would be a nifty way to frame it up.

Right. There are about five million blogs already in existence for book reviews. Maybe the difference would be everything requested HAS to be reviewed, even if it's bad (that's how I do mine, but for the most part I haven't read anything bad). People can also comment if they agree or disagree.

If we had 10 or more people contributing, each person would not have to do much at all. Each reviewer could maybe choose a favorite genre, so that a die-hard science fiction fan won't have to try and objectively review a historical romance, something with which he or she has no experience.

The more I think about it, the more fun this sounds to do.

[plumboz]

If you're looking for one to practice on, feel free to bash away at Boomerang.

[BexBits]

Originally Posted by banjobama

Right. There are about five million blogs already in existence for book reviews. Maybe the difference would be everything requested HAS to be reviewed, even if it's bad (that's how I do mine, but for the most part I haven't read anything bad). People can also comment if they agree or disagree.

Comments from other contributors on the same book would be a really nifty feature (along with reader comments perhaps?)

If we had 10 or more people contributing, each person would not have to do much at all. Each reviewer could maybe choose a favorite genre, so that a die-hard science fiction fan won't have to try and objectively review a historical romance, something with which he or she has no experience.

That would be a real strength -- there are huge parts of the book universe I couldn't objectively review books in because the entire genre leaves me cold.

The more I think about it, the more fun this sounds to do.

Agreed.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by jaxx6166

Looks like there are some others who feel strongly that self published authors should at least polish their works.

I don't mind if they don't polish their works... I just want to know what I'm getting into. I'd be more dismayed by an excellent description written by a friend who does professional book editing attached to a book that obviously hadn't even been spellchecked, than the current mix of bad descriptions, awful cover art, and equally poor writing.

Originally Posted by banjobama

Maybe we should start a blog for reviews.

I have my own, but it would be nice to have one that many people had posting privileges at so it would stay fresh. Would anyone be interested in doing this?

Sounds like fun. Could be done here in the recs folder with some tags, or at a separate blog. (I like here for purely selfish reasons--my job blocks access to most blog sites.)

I wouldn't want to limit reviews to "books by authors who self-promote at MR;" I'd like to be able to hype the gems I've found through other methods, and warn people about the dreck.

And as much as I'd be concerned about hurting authors' feelings--reviews are for readers. They're supposed to let other people know if they'd like to read the book. How well- or poorly-written the book is isn't the point of a review, and authors & reviewers alike should treat that as just one aspect of the book. A person who's obsessed with space alien-vampire BDSM love stories may not care about atrocious grammar; the genre's so tiny they may love to find *anything* in it. A civil war recreationist may like historical fiction set in 1860--but only if the details are correct; excellent storytelling skills may take second place to accuracy. And so on.

If we had 10 or more people contributing, each person would not have to do much at all. Each reviewer could maybe choose a favorite genre

Ooh, I like that! With maybe some space for crossover; while most of my reading runs through a few genres, I wouldn't want to be shut out of reviewing the odd book that fell outside of them, especially if it's by an author I know from other books.

Maybe themed days of the week? Sunday science fiction; Monday mysteries; Tuesday (torrid) romances; Wednesday wild card...