Self published authors, do you self edit? - Page 3

carld · 07-07-2010, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxx6166

What's a verb?

It's like an adverb without the commercials.

rhadin · 07-07-2010, 09:20 AM

Style manuals are overrated by editors and underappreciated by noneditors. Editors too often adhere to a style manual's rules without really thinking about the purpose of a style manual; noneditors dismiss the manuals because of their perceived rigidity.

Style manuals generally are relevant primarily for nonfiction. They serve the purpose of ensuring readers that certain conventions are followed so that a reader can travel from book A to book B and not be diverted by personal preference differences. More importantly, they ensure that bibliographic material is complete and familiar and usable, something that is particularly important in nonfiction. It should be noted that nearly all style manuals focus on scholarly work and need to be viewed from that perspective.

The primary nonscholarly focused style manuals, like the Associated Press and the New York Times manuals, are focused on a specific industry and are designed to bring a sense of uniformity that readers expect to the particular product.

I discussed some of this in my article Editors & “Professional” Resources: A Questionable Reliance.

Although there are a lot of authors who echo Moejoe's loathing of editors for various reason, there actually are some excellent reasons why a professional editor is important. Of course, if you think like Moejoe and price your writing as free, then it makes little sense to invest in professional help. But if you want to switch from a day job to full-time writing as your sole source of income, the balance shifts, I think.

For whatever it is worth, I have also written articles on about professional editing, what editors do, what to expect, and why authors need professional editors. I invite you to peruse them at my blog An American Editor (link below in signature). Search for Professional Editors or use the Filed Under tag Professional Editors to view them.

One last thing: As another poster mentioned, the biggest problem when self-editing is seeing what is really on the page rather than what you expect to see. I wrote about this in The WYSIWYG Conundrum: The Solid Cloud. You might also find this worthwhile reading. Although this is a particular problem for self-editing, editors, too, suffer from this problem and often see what they expect, which is why few books (admittedly, I've never encountered one) are error-free.

TC Beacham · 07-07-2010, 11:42 AM

Editing has to be done - over and over again.

After I've edited several drafts myself, I barter for the services of a couple of professional writers and english/lit teachers for each project. After they've gone through the novel, I take all of their corrections, comments and suggestions into account in writing a final draft - or three.

NickSpalding · 07-07-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TC Beacham

Editing has to be done - over and over again.

Tell me about it...I drive myself to the point of distraction. I'm up to six drafts of something I've been working on at the moment.

As somebody once said, writing a book is never finished! But at some point you have to just say enough and let it be.

...and try to resist the temptation to arrange that tricky paragraph around once more time...

jaxx6166 · 07-07-2010, 08:22 PM

THIS is why I need to re-edit all my work....Wow.

Quote:

He was laying in a small bed, goosedown feathers were soft against his skin.

Just became this:

Quote:

The waking world arrived slowly, everything fading out of darkness and into the light. Senses awakened. Light blinded him. At least the bed was comfortable. Goosedown feathers played softly against his naked skin.

One of many passive voice sentences and paragraphs that I've found so far in the 3,000 words that I've edited. Wow. I suck. It's not that bad, but not great yet either.

Apparently, when I get into stream of conscious, all my writing shifts into passive voice as I tell myself the story.

Metal Mick · 07-08-2010, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Editing is hard.

Self-editing is really hard.

Any form of editing requires a specific awareness of what's going on in the story, self editing adds the requirement that you be able to see what's actually on the page, not just what you intended to put there.

One issue with self-editing self-published works is that there are people who take that route because they don't have the patience to put that final edit and polish on a book. As more and more people with neither the skills, nor the inclination to learn them, start releasing books the quality is going to go down.

<snip>

Hi Lemurion, et al,

I agree with your thoughts re editing. After all, there are good reasons why there are or were people employed to do just that.

Many are the times I have polished a piece and thought it without typos or other faults only to revisit it and see a mass of errors. And I love the language and the act of writing.

It pains me to get a book that is riddled with errors, and though no specific examples come to me right now. I feel somewhat cheated, or let down. I recall in my youth that I never encountered such issues.

I have noticed a number of undesirable traits creeping into published works - often by well-known authors - and this saddens me... as well as annoys. .

Perhaps it is just me, but I see any shortcoming in something I produce as a reflection on me, and I strive for perfection.

Cheers,

lmpreston · 07-08-2010, 10:04 AM

I did a blog post today with an Editor who still consults with the big publishing houses. Her name is Ally check it out http://lmpreston.blogspot.com/2010/0...ght-party.html She gives her insight on the importance of editing and her time as an editor with the big publishing houses.

tsgreer · 07-08-2010, 06:25 PM

I've found that being part of a writing group has really helped me out. They have caught poor grammar, misspelled words, etc.

They can also point out aspects of the story that may not be clear to the reader. If 8 people in the room are confused by the exact same plot point, then you can bet most others will be as well.

I will say that the first critique I got from my writing group a couple of months ago was painful. Very painful. But my second critique went really well. I try to self-edit as much as I can, but sometimes it's better to have a non-biased point of view from several people.

You don't always have to agree with the writing group or make the changes, but for the most part, it's helpful for me to step back and hear their opinions.

Moejoe · 07-08-2010, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsgreer

I've found that being part of a writing group has really helped me out. They have caught poor grammar, misspelled words, etc.

They can also point out aspects of the story that may not be clear to the reader. If 8 people in the room are confused by the exact same plot point, then you can bet most others will be as well.

I will say that the first critique I got from my writing group a couple of months ago was painful. Very painful. But my second critique went really well. I try to self-edit as much as I can, but sometimes it's better to have a non-biased point of view from several people.

You don't always have to agree with the writing group or make the changes, but for the most part, it's helpful for me to step back and hear their opinions.

I've been in those 'circles' also, and then I realised being part of a critique group with writers had zero point. Writers read the work as writers, not as readers. You might have 8 people in the room who see a flaw, but they're not really people..they're writers!

Metal Mick · 07-08-2010, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I have a stack of vital reference books on the right-hand corner of my desk: Two dictionaries, a thesaurus, Chicago Manual of Style, a couple of other books - and Elements of Style sitting right on top of the heap.

Hi Lemurion, et al,

Strunk and White's Elements of Style is probably the best value book around. It is small and concise (quote: omit needless words!). It is also available online.

I too, have a copy of the Chicago Manual of Style, but refer to it pretty much only when I am doing layout work, which is rare nowadays. Mine is from 1993, so might be in need of an update.

Although much larger than S&W, the Cambridge Australian English Manual of Style is an outstanding reference work, regardless of your country of residence. Despite the name, it provides sage and often terse advice (with occasional doses of humor) on word usage, grammar, and so forth. It will, for example, comprehensively put to bed usage of the verb "lay" in all its forms. <smile>

Cheers,

DaringNovelist · 07-08-2010, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I've been in those 'circles' also, and then I realised being part of a critique group with writers had zero point. Writers read the work as writers, not as readers. You might have 8 people in the room who see a flaw, but they're not really people..they're writers!

Beginning and most intermediate writers read as writers. Advanced writers are those who have got over it, and now read as readers (or at least can do so on request).

Camille

Moejoe · 07-08-2010, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaringNovelist

Beginning and most intermediate writers read as writers. Advanced writers are those who have got over it, and now read as readers (or at least can do so on request).

Camille

Super-advanced writers can take a joke.

Albert Camus' Gerbil, Norman

jaxx6166 · 07-08-2010, 09:13 PM

Oh man. Self editing Beyond the Black right now. When they say "all first drafts are shit" they're not lying...its discouraging.

I don't know how I wrote such dreck..or how my alpha readers enjoyed it. =/

tsgreer · 07-09-2010, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxx6166

Oh man. Self editing Beyond the Black right now. When they say "all first drafts are shit" they're not lying...its discouraging.

I don't know how I wrote such dreck..or how my alpha readers enjoyed it. =/

Well, there are no good writers, only good re-writers.

BexBits · 07-10-2010, 01:24 PM

I'm neither a writer nor an editor, just a reader. As a reader, I really, really appreciate an author making the effort to have his/her story presented as professionally as possible.

I'm reading a self-published book right now. The plot and characters are enough to keep me reading but every page may be the last I wade through. I don't know if the author didn't do much review or thought self-editing was sufficient. Maybe sometimes it is but self-editing won't do you any good if you don't know that, for instance, in English the phrase "he was excited about finding it" is correct but "he was excited for finding it" is not.

Every instance of something like that jolts me out of the story and back into my middle-aged crankiness about language mutilation. One of those jolts may be the one that makes me just give up and there goes the author's revenue from a potential sale of the rest of the series.

View Poll Results: How do you edit your work?
I edit it all by myself with little/no outside input	11	44.00%
I have a friend/relative read it over	4	16.00%
I hire a freelance editor	4	16.00%
I'm in a writing group and we edit each others work	2	8.00%
Other, I do it a different way entirely	2	8.00%
My cat or dog do my editing	2	8.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

07-08-2010, 09:13 PM	#43
jaxx6166 Wizard Posts: 1,222 Karma: 769316 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Eternal summer Device: 350, iPad, PW	Oh man. Self editing Beyond the Black right now. When they say "all first drafts are shit" they're not lying...its discouraging. I don't know how I wrote such dreck..or how my alpha readers enjoyed it. =/ Last edited by jaxx6166; 07-08-2010 at 09:27 PM.

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07-07-2010, 09:20 AM	#32
rhadin Literacy = Understanding Posts: 4,833 Karma: 59674358 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: The World of Books Device: Nook, Nook Tablet	Style manuals are overrated by editors and underappreciated by noneditors. Editors too often adhere to a style manual's rules without really thinking about the purpose of a style manual; noneditors dismiss the manuals because of their perceived rigidity. Style manuals generally are relevant primarily for nonfiction. They serve the purpose of ensuring readers that certain conventions are followed so that a reader can travel from book A to book B and not be diverted by personal preference differences. More importantly, they ensure that bibliographic material is complete and familiar and usable, something that is particularly important in nonfiction. It should be noted that nearly all style manuals focus on scholarly work and need to be viewed from that perspective. The primary nonscholarly focused style manuals, like the Associated Press and the New York Times manuals, are focused on a specific industry and are designed to bring a sense of uniformity that readers expect to the particular product. I discussed some of this in my article Editors & “Professional” Resources: A Questionable Reliance. Although there are a lot of authors who echo Moejoe's loathing of editors for various reason, there actually are some excellent reasons why a professional editor is important. Of course, if you think like Moejoe and price your writing as free, then it makes little sense to invest in professional help. But if you want to switch from a day job to full-time writing as your sole source of income, the balance shifts, I think. For whatever it is worth, I have also written articles on about professional editing, what editors do, what to expect, and why authors need professional editors. I invite you to peruse them at my blog An American Editor (link below in signature). Search for Professional Editors or use the Filed Under tag Professional Editors to view them. One last thing: As another poster mentioned, the biggest problem when self-editing is seeing what is really on the page rather than what you expect to see. I wrote about this in The WYSIWYG Conundrum: The Solid Cloud. You might also find this worthwhile reading. Although this is a particular problem for self-editing, editors, too, suffer from this problem and often see what they expect, which is why few books (admittedly, I've never encountered one) are error-free.

07-07-2010, 11:42 AM	#33
TC Beacham Great Beach Reads! Posts: 202 Karma: 300000 Join Date: Dec 2009 Device: Kindle 2	Editing has to be done - over and over again. After I've edited several drafts myself, I barter for the services of a couple of professional writers and english/lit teachers for each project. After they've gone through the novel, I take all of their corrections, comments and suggestions into account in writing a final draft - or three.

07-08-2010, 10:04 AM	#37
lmpreston YA Author Posts: 46 Karma: 501408 Join Date: Feb 2010 Device: none	I did a blog post today with an Editor who still consults with the big publishing houses. Her name is Ally check it out http://lmpreston.blogspot.com/2010/0...ght-party.html She gives her insight on the importance of editing and her time as an editor with the big publishing houses.

07-08-2010, 06:25 PM	#38
tsgreer Lovin' the e-book life... Posts: 633 Karma: 2509 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Device: Ebookwise 1150, Sony PRS-505, Amazon Kindle, BeBook (with OpenInkpot)	I've found that being part of a writing group has really helped me out. They have caught poor grammar, misspelled words, etc. They can also point out aspects of the story that may not be clear to the reader. If 8 people in the room are confused by the exact same plot point, then you can bet most others will be as well. I will say that the first critique I got from my writing group a couple of months ago was painful. Very painful. But my second critique went really well. I try to self-edit as much as I can, but sometimes it's better to have a non-biased point of view from several people. You don't always have to agree with the writing group or make the changes, but for the most part, it's helpful for me to step back and hear their opinions.

07-10-2010, 01:24 PM	#45
BexBits Zealot Posts: 134 Karma: 184000 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Colorado Device: Nook classic, Nook Simple Touch, Nook HD	I'm neither a writer nor an editor, just a reader. As a reader, I really, really appreciate an author making the effort to have his/her story presented as professionally as possible. I'm reading a self-published book right now. The plot and characters are enough to keep me reading but every page may be the last I wade through. I don't know if the author didn't do much review or thought self-editing was sufficient. Maybe sometimes it is but self-editing won't do you any good if you don't know that, for instance, in English the phrase "he was excited about finding it" is correct but "he was excited for finding it" is not. Every instance of something like that jolts me out of the story and back into my middle-aged crankiness about language mutilation. One of those jolts may be the one that makes me just give up and there goes the author's revenue from a potential sale of the rest of the series.

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