Fair Use?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GERGE

Do you think it is wrong to pirate books you have in a different language?

Yes. A translation its own copyright, completely independent from that of the original. One could argue for "fair use" for downloading digital copies of the Turkish versions that you have, but downloading English version is pure copyright infringement; you do not have any legal right whatsoever to those editions.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes. A translation its own copyright, completely independent from that of the original. One could argue for "fair use" for downloading digital copies of the Turkish versions that you have, but downloading English version is pure copyright infringement; you do not have any legal right whatsoever to those editions.

They wouldn't have any legal right to download any of them, this is more about a moral right. You would have a moral right to anything that you had already purchased, but not to something you hadn't purchased unless there was no official digital product.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

There is a large danger in pirating books (or anything else). Ignoring that pirated media is often lower quality than legal copies, even if you could justify pirating a copy of something (replacing a damaged original, for example), pirated media is often rife with malware. You would also be supporting the pirates.

I don't know who told you that, but I'm guessing you got it from an entertainment industry press release?

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

Here is an analogy to what I am talking about. I bought a used F150 truck recently. I really wanted (and needed) the additional trailer towing capacity of an F350 but couldn't afford to buy or operate one. Would that justify me to buy the F150 then go out and steal a dealer's F350 (heck, they have plenty more)? A little extreme but essentially the same principle is involved.

Nobody is suggesting that anyone steal the computers that the ebooks are stored on, so it is not the same principle at all.

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

There is a large danger in pirating books (or anything else). Ignoring that pirated media is often lower quality than legal copies, even if you could justify pirating a copy of something (replacing a damaged original, for example), pirated media is often rife with malware. You would also be supporting the pirates.

Pirated media is more often higher quality than legal copies, at least in my experience.
I haven't found any malware in a book yet - it's not a program, it's not a code to run, the worst thing to happen would be to have a script virus in DOC file, but there aren't many DOC files among pirated books.
Those who scan and release books, or break DRM generally don't make money off it, and think badly of people making money off pirated copies.
I believe that by downloading a pirated book one gives a hint to publishing industry that they should compete with piracy through accessibility and quality of ebooks and not through DRMs.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by GERGE

Not exactly. The books are translated into Turkish from English. I already paid Robert Jordan and the Turkish translator. I want to read them in their original language. I don't think I need to pay for them again. Jordan already got my money.

Again, it depends. Did you buy the book, then pay someone to translate it into Turkish? If so, what happened to the original book? Or did you just buy an already translated version? In which case, you probably would not own the English rights to the book and would have to buy it. Now trading your Turkish version for an English version would probably alright. Like I said, it's a can of worms. I share your frustration for not being able to use a book you paid for the way you want.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

I believe that by downloading a pirated book one gives a hint to publishing industry that they should compete with piracy through accessibility and quality of ebooks and not through DRMs.

Without piracy there would have never been an ebook industry. Just like there would have never been an mp3 industry. Piracy created a demand for devices that make use of pirated content away from the computer, and it is those devices that made it possible to profit from digital content.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

I don't know who told you that, but I'm guessing you got it from an entertainment industry press release?

No, I got it from various geek sites (where they do know what they are talking about) and IT techs I know who advise against downloading any pirated media since that is a popular vehicle for malware. I trust entertainment press releases as far as I can spit upwind in a stiff breeze.

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Nobody is suggesting that anyone steal the computers that the ebooks are stored on, so it is not the same principle at all.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Nowhere did I mention or allude to stealing computers.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

Pirated media is more often higher quality than legal copies, at least in my experience.
I haven't found any malware in a book yet - it's not a program, it's not a code to run, the worst thing to happen would be to have a script virus in DOC file, but there aren't many DOC files among pirated books.
Those who scan and release books, or break DRM generally don't make money off it, and think badly of people making money off pirated copies.
I believe that by downloading a pirated book one gives a hint to publishing industry that they should compete with piracy through accessibility and quality of ebooks and not through DRMs.

If malware were to be transmitted, it would probably be part of the total download package and not actually attached to the e-book or sent once the downloaders had your IP addy. A good firewall would stop that.

The only message downloading pirated books will send the publishing industry is their attempts to prevent piracy through DRM are justified and may encourage them to increase their efforts.

Pirating and buying books with DRM and cracking the DRM are both illegal according to the warped laws we have but at least the person buying a book and cracking the DRM for personal use only has paid the publisher and author(s) for the book. Piracy is plain old stealing no matter how you try to justify it.

[omk3]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Without piracy there would have never been an ebook industry. Just like there would have never been an mp3 industry. Piracy created a demand for devices that make use of pirated content away from the computer, and it is those devices that made it possible to profit from digital content.

Very, very true!

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

No, I got it from various geek sites (where they do know what they are talking about) and IT techs I know who advise against downloading any pirated media since that is a popular vehicle for malware. I trust entertainment press releases as far as I can spit upwind in a stiff breeze.

Sure, there may be malware in pirated media. But I don't think it's even possible to have malware in ebooks. They're just text, after all. Other media, sure. Plus, most people who share ebooks are readers, not hackers. They're mostly interested in sharing books they like with other people. Don't we all? The only difference is that now you can share with thousands instead of a dozen.

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

You are comparing apples and oranges. Nowhere did I mention or allude to stealing computers.

The thing is, you can't steal a digital copy, because it's not missing after you take it. It's been argued to death already. There can only be artificial scarcity with digital files (like libraries having only one copy of an ebook ), but no real one.

Is any of it legal? No.
Is it moral? Every one has to decide for themselves on that one.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

Piracy is plain old stealing no matter how you try to justify it.

I've often argued that unauthorized downloading is not stealing - it's not even piracy. I've given up. It is stealing - it's stealing like not paying your fare on the bus is stealing: it's difficult to see where the loss is. If it helps anyone to call it stealing, go ahead - will it make any difference? Not a jot - people who upload and download unauthorized copies of books on the whole don't give a stuff what people on "law abiding" forums like this one think of their activities, and the more "the man" persecutes them the more determined they are to find ways of carrying on.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Without piracy there would have never been an ebook industry. Just like there would have never been an mp3 industry. Piracy created a demand for devices that make use of pirated content away from the computer, and it is those devices that made it possible to profit from digital content.

Ripping a CD you own so you can use your media on a different device isn't the same as piracy. Piracy is taking something that the owner will never be paid for; in other words, stealing.

There were portable CD players before MP3 players. MP3 players were devloped so more tunes could be placed on a single device. If anything, the MP3 industry developed in spite of piracy. And, if anything, piracy will hinder the e-book industry, not enable it.

Actually, it just doesn't really matter if piracy enables or inhibits new industries. It's still stealing and if you don't have a sense of right or wrong, then there is the problem.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by omk3

Very, very true!



Sure, there may be malware in pirated media. But I don't think it's even possible to have malware in ebooks. They're just text, after all. Other media, sure. Plus, most people who share ebooks are readers, not hackers. They're mostly interested in sharing books they like with other people. Don't we all? The only difference is that now you can share with thousands instead of a dozen.



The thing is, you can't steal a digital copy, because it's not missing after you take it. It's been argued to death already. There can only be artificial scarcity with digital files (like libraries having only one copy of an ebook ), but no real one.

Is any of it legal? No.
Is it moral? Every one has to decide for themselves on that one.

Just because you aren't taking a physical object doesn't mean you aren't stealing. If you don't compensate someone for what you are taking, in this case the author's creation, you are stealing! There is nothing to decide when it comes to the morality of stealing!

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

You are comparing apples and oranges. Nowhere did I mention or allude to stealing computers.

But you did mention stealing something and saying that was the same thing as copyright infringement. That is like saying jaywalking is the same thing as murder.

[omk3]

@Lady Fitzgerald
I'm not arguing the word, as it is obvious that it will lead nowhere.
I was just highlighting why your F150 truck example wasn't the same as downloading an illicit copy. You can calculate very precisely the cost of one missing truck, but not the cost of one missing ebook, or the cost of the space one person with no ticket takes up on the bus. That was all I was saying.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by omk3

Very, very true!



Sure, there may be malware in pirated media. But I don't think it's even possible to have malware in ebooks. They're just text, after all.

It would probably be possible, but I've never heard of it. DOC files can have scripts, PDF has had a few vulnerabilities over the years, even JPG covers can have a virus hidden in them. But what would be the point? The follow up messages would all warn everyone about it.

The idea that pirate content is full of viruses is just as laughable as the idea that pirate content is inferior to official content. But I can see why some would like everyone to think that both statements are true.