Seriously thoughtful Let's be civil, please

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Comment on the Great Books. They are about ideals, general concepts. Not current details.

If you feel strongly about something, do what generations of people have done over the centuries....write a story about it. I do, and believe me, I am not a great writer. (And no comments about how great my Red stories are. And I mean you, and you, and you!)

There are people you are absolutely going to disagree with. Remember the Golden Rule. If you want to have your opinion, you must let someone else have their own opinion, no matter how wrong you may think they are. it's the underlying requirement of freedom...

Respect ....

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by jinlo

Incivility regarding politics is but a symptom of a larger disease. Negative energy has been building here for quite some time. Removing political and religious topics might lessen the number of angry responses, and perhaps that will suffice in reversing the tide, but I’m not so certain.

I’ve seen threads about censorship turn ugly. I’ve seen people attacked for pointing out their opinions as to why Kindles might be lacking. What happens in these cases? Is the next step to stop all threads about censorship and to ban all negative remarks regarding Kindles?

My point is that it is not always the subject matter that causes conflict, but rather the individuals making a post. Some people enjoy conflict and chaos, they thrive under such conditions. I can only assume this is why some of these horrible reality shows are so popular.

I wish you luck in trying to address this problem, but I also wish to warn you that banning certain topics may not lead to the outcome you seek. Individuals will often find other means to cause the conflict they crave.

We try to strike a balance between not allowing certain topics and allowing anything. Our experience is that there are gong to be problems and difficulties no matter what direction we turn. The idea behind this thread is to let the membership know that we, as moderators, are aware of the mood of the forum and want to convey to you, as adults, from adults, that we very much want to be rid of the rancor that has cropped up from time to time. We aren't nannies, we just try to keep things civil. We try to post a "Play nice" message whenever we become aware of problems, but often a thread gets too out of hand to be allowed to continue, hence the closures.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Patricia

The moderators are discussing this issue.

There is a case for just stopping ALL political threads. However, what exactly counts as political? DRM threads get political at times and its not always easy to see where a line should be drawn.

Last year we tried moving all serious political threads into a forum called the Conservatory. It was a disaster, and generated more rancor and bitterness than we had ever seen on MR. Alex eventually decided to close it because it had nothing to do with our central mission: to promote mobile reading it all its forms.

Now we have a resurgence of overtly political topics and some people have been very intemperate. We'd like to find a solution that allows members as much freedom as possible, without causing gratuitous offence to others. This is more difficult than you might think. For example, we had to ban the so-called "Rattler" earlier because he turned out to be a sockpuppet for Recluse.

Well, as I was not apparently around for that I guess I wonder WHY it was an unmitigated disaster?

Surely a politics and/or religion (or wild wild west if you want) should work. It does on other forums which I frequent (art and drawing and science and even gun and religion forums).

I mean look at the global warming thread. It's gotten heated at times, but we (with a little from our moderator friends) have brought it back around.

I think particularly in a reading/literary forum like this where all the children are above average we should be able to discuss virtually anything and keep it away from the personal attacks. Members as well as moderators must help to manage if things start veering out of hand.

I would hate to see banning of any topic.

[GeoffC]

it's a fine line that has to be drawn - and it has to be somewhere....

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Comment on the Great Books. They are about ideals, general concepts. Not current details.

If you feel strongly about something, do what generations of people have done over the centuries....write a story about it. I do, and believe me, I am not a great writer. (And no comments about how great my Red stories are. And I mean you, and you, and you!)

There are people you are absolutely going to disagree with. Remember the Golden Rule. If you want to have your opinion, you must let someone else have their own opinion, no matter how wrong you may think they are. it's the underlying requirement of freedom...

As my unmitigated arch enemy in the global warming thread Sir Ralph I agree with this completely. I do my best to not only state my opinions and beliefs, but to respect others and allow them to do the same.

We must stay away from the personal attacks and slurs. We can civilly discuss and debate anything if we remember to not take or make it personally.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by kennyc

As my unmitigated arch enemy in the global warming thread Sir Ralph I agree with this completely. I do my best to not only state my opinions and beliefs, but to respect others and allow them to do the same.

We must stay away from the personal attacks and slurs. We can civilly discuss and debate anything if we remember to not take or make it personally.

Seconded!!

As the posting guidelines say:
"When things get controversial please disagree with the opinion, not the person."

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

If you feel strongly about something, do what generations of people have done over the centuries....write a story about it. I do, and believe me, I am not a great writer. (And no comments about how great my Red stories are. And I mean you, and you, and you!)

But... but...

(And I agree with the writing stories about it)

There are people you are absolutely going to disagree with. Remember the Golden Rule. If you want to have your opinion, you must let someone else have their own opinion, no matter how wrong you may think they are. it's the underlying requirement of freedom...

:applauds:

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

So.......I just read that happy_terd is no longer with us, because of all the rancor and political crap being spewed. We've lost another valuable member because of poisonous posts.

[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

Well, I guess that explains why I had a message from him telling me to "take it easy". I couldn't figure out what I'd been ranting about that he'd be telling me that. It wasn't til I read this thread that I realized it was a goodbye .

I've missed the whole thing too, been busy with school and work. No idea what happened, don't particularly WANT to know - but I do know I'll miss Happy .

I know that this will make me about as popular as a turd at an apple-bobbing contest, but can people please take the time to actually look at the comments happy_terd made before turning him into some kind of prodigal son / wronged hero.

I was one of the ones who criticised his advocating genocide for entire countries which made an enemy of America. I stand by that criticism and am actually quite happy to see the back of him.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

I know that this will make me about as popular as a turd at an apple-bobbing contest, but can people please take the time to actually look at the comments happy_terd made before turning him into some kind of prodigal son / wronged hero.

I was one of the ones who criticised his advocating genocide for entire countries which made an enemy of America. I stand by that criticism and am actually quite happy to see the back of him.

Well we all have strong opinions on certain things and certainly you and I have gotten into it on at least one occasion but we got through that (I think ).

H_T rubbed me a bit the wrong way at first -- as much for his user name as anything -- but once I got to know him and where he was coming from in some of the lounge threads I felt a significant sense of friendship and saw a significant amount of good will in his postings and interest in people and books. I am sorry to see him go. Same for KindleKitten who appears to have gone the same way.

To me they were both valued members of the community.

I'm sorry it came to this.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Well we all have strong opinions on certain things and certainly you and I have gotten into it on at least one occasion but we got through that (I think ).

H_T rubbed me a bit the wrong way at first -- as much for his user name as anything -- but once I got to know him and where he was coming from in some of the lounge threads I felt a significant sense of friendship and saw a significant amount of good will in his postings and interest in people and books. I am sorry to see him go. Same for KindleKitten who appears to have gone the same way.

To me they were both valued members of the community.

I'm sorry it came to this.

Kenny - you're right. I had no problem with H_T before that thread and he actually posted a lot of stuff I agreed with and that made me laugh.

However, I really can't feel any sympathy at all for somebody who expressed the views he did in that thread.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Kenny - you're right. I had no problem with H_T before that thread and he actually posted a lot of stuff I agreed with and that made me laugh.

However, I really can't feel any sympathy at all for somebody who expressed the views he did in that thread.

I understand, I've seen the remains of that thread. I'm not making excuses or anything like that. The internet and forums just make it way too easy to say things out of line or misunderstand what someone is saying or to take offense. It's almost like it's an emotional amplifier of some kind at times. Something we (and me certainly as well) should keep in mind as we post.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I understand, I've seen the remains of that thread. I'm not making excuses or anything like that. The internet and forums just make it way too easy to say things out of line or misunderstand what someone is saying or to take offense. It's almost like it's an emotional amplifier of some kind at times. Something we (and me certainly as well) should keep in mind as we post.

Again Kenny, I agree with all that. I just feel that H_T crossed a line in this case.

[poohbear_nc]

Wow - I've just got back online and am trying to catch up on stuff here.

For my 2 cents: there is no place here for blatantly political or religious posts - yes, it's a judgment call for the mods - but should be enforced. People cannot discuss their patriotic or religious feelings rationally - they are personal beliefs, not rational facts. And they're certainly not a joking matter.

The llounge is a place for fun. We can & do have serious topics - but they tend to be deeply personal topics - like the light a candle thread, or commiserating with a member over some sort of loss, or helping members solve problems. The key point is keeping the interaction on a family basis. Family members can disagree or argue without breaking up the family. The trick is knowing the boundaries. For example, nobody attacks posters in the Vent & Rant thread for whatever topic is being ranted about - you are free to say what you feel and get it off your chest. That's the point!

I too support removing the offending threads entirely. There's no need to keep reminding folk, or exposing new readers, to what we've already decided is too offensive to have here. Sweep it out!

This place is too precious to me, and others, for the humor, good fun, and friendships. As others have posted above, I want to play again here, not fight!

CAKE'S ON ME!! CHOCOLATE!

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Well, as I was not apparently around for that I guess I wonder WHY it was an unmitigated disaster?

Because it was perceived as a place for "topics too hot for general Lounge discussion," rather than "topics not related to ebooks, but a bit more serious than the Lounge really supports."

When it opened, several people acted like it meant "political flamewars go here!" And it's not likely any similar board-splitting in the future would have different results.

We do okay, I think, with political (religious/military/etc.) discussions in the Lounge, even if they get heated sometimes. Even if people get banned for them sometimes. If people aren't able to follow Mobileread's guidelines for civil conversation, I'd rather that showed up in non-ebook topics than getting more of the copyright/DRM/pirate discussions shut down. I think those are *important* to Mobileread (even as repetitive as they can get), and on-topic, and I want all those issues thoroughly hashed out and dissected and analyzed.

I don't think that removing some topics is going to lower tempers any--people who believe they are *right* and those who disagree are *wrong* and can freely be insulted, are going to believe that no matter what the topic is. Those who recognize they have hot-button issues about a particular topic can learn to stay out of those threads or risk being banned--the mods are not parents, and they shouldn't have to ban whole categories of discussion to avoid the occasional flare-up. The rest of us can manage to discuss politics with people who disagree with us as well as we can manage to discuss file torrenting with people who disagree with us.

And those discussions get heated at times. Sometimes, enough to make threads get shut down. Sometimes enough to get people banned. But not as often as discussions in the Lounge--which tells me that those people weren't as interested in discussions about ebooks, as they were about "proving their point," whatever they believed that to be.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by poohbear_nc

I too support removing the offending threads entirely. There's no need to keep reminding folk, or exposing new readers, to what we've already decided is too offensive to have here. Sweep it out!

I very much prefer they stay.

Leaving them tells new readers what's considered against the rules here. They make excellent examples of how the rules actually work, as opposed to the general "be civil; no name-calling" rules, which a thousand boards have, and all interpret differently. (On MR, for example, "thief" is not considered name-calling. Or at least not bannable name-calling on its own.) Leaving closed topics is about the only way a new member can find out what the rules *really* are here, and what's considered going too far.

This is especially important in a multi-lingual forum, where members may not understand the connotations of the rules as written; a literal translation may not be enough to capture the "feel" of the rules.

Also, some of those threads contain good information or links, or *good* discussion happening in & around the offensive content. I don't think a person ought to be able to say, "This is a stupid discussion. I'll get it removed from MR entirely by trolling with a new account, and the whole thread will vanish when I get banned!"