Is piracy likely to harm ebook sales?

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

. . . This is people who *WILL* buy your stuff, and *WILL* pay for a copy, but have been forced to pirate your ebook because either A) it's good enough to read, but not good enough to be worth paying for, B) you did something stupid and locked it behind oppressive DRM, C) you priced your book above what most people consider reasonable for a book, or maybe just your book specifically, or D) you're a douche (like the MPAA/RIAA) and treat people like crap, so they fight back by getting their fix while preventing you from lining your pockets with their cash.

Either way, 90% of piracy doesn't need to occur. If distributors, writers, artists, companies, etc, etc, would all just get a clue, the people who would pay will pay, and those who won't will just go on doing what they've always done, and that's steal because they are dishonest douches.

Please read the first statement and item A) once more and tell me if the combination makes sense? They want to pay the author for his work, but it is not good enough to be worth their money so they are forced to pirate it so they can read it? Say what? People who steal are dishonest douches -Yes!- but not if the item is priced at more than they think it is worth-No! No they have just rationalized becoming dishonest douches themselves. Not worth the asking price? Move on and pay for something else you think is.

Everything else you had to say is in my opinion spot on. DRM is an incredibly stupid idea. I always strip the DRM form any e-books I buy, not because I want to put it on the 'darknet' and let others piggy-back for free on my purchase, but because I have purchased the e-book and it is my right to be able to read it when I want on any device I want.

Item C, argh! A rehash of the assertion in item A. Once more each of us should not be individually allowed to decide what an item is worth and, if what the seller wants is higher than that, conclude that we are justified in getting it for free from some pirate source.

The MPAA/RIAA attempts to stop piracy buy trying to track down and sue downloaders? An even dumber idea than DRM.

The truth is that the people who just want everything for free are like cockroaches. After WWIII they will still be ubiquitous. I think most people are honest and know that authors deserve to be paid for their work. It is just that this “piracy is not only not a crime it's the moral thing to do and doesn't hurt anyone” culture is like a devil whispering in everyone's ear.

Final point about piracy actually benefiting authors? It is possible I guess, but I am far from convinced. I don't see how broad circulation among the never-pay-for-it crowd will ever benefit authors in sales and income.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by garbanzo

people pirate ebooks and everything else because they don't see any sense in paying pay for something when it can be acquired discretely and instantly from the comfort of their own home.

Oh, and why did I buy books I had already downloaded years ago (and even read years ago, and don't forget the pbook versions I already own)? Maybe because it was finally available to me? O, no, according to you I don't want to pay for my books...

Naturally, there are people who will download even if legal versions are available, just because it's easy and cheap. But saying that all ebook pirates do that for that reason is saying that everybody is a thief because a few take from houses things that don't belong to them.

But due to the way some publishers seem to think, people are looking somewhere else. And the problem is, once people find out how easy it is to get "free" books, the harder it will be to get those people away from those "free" books again. Especially now, when ebooks are getting more and more attention, more and more people will find their way to the darknet.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by garbanzo

sorry, but this is utter crap. nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. the fact that you can't buy a particular luxury item that your heart desires does not justify going out and stealing it. it's like saying it's OK to buy drugs off the street because the government does not allow them to be sold commercially.

people pirate ebooks and everything else because they don't see any sense in paying pay for something when it can be acquired discretely and instantly from the comfort of their own home.

No, people are doing it because it is easier or the product is better. Price isn't really much of an issue at all. What people want is properly proof read books without any silly restrictions on what they can do with them either now or in the future.

[GhostHawk]

People don't believe in paying unreasonable amounts of money for something that costs the publisher virtually nothing to produce.

So yell about the publishers greed if your going to complain about pirates.
Because they caused it in the first place.

Also for many of us books are not a "luxury" it is a necessity that keeps us sane, and able to deal with those around us.

If people could find what they wanted at a reasonable price, they wouldn't pirate it. As for sales, you can't lose something you never had. They never had those sales. They had "expectation's" and hopes of sales. Whats worse, the people who pirate because they can't afford to shell out 15$ for an ebook. Or the Publisher who will break any law he can get away with, inflate prices on books that cost him almost nothing to produce. While wasting loads of money and paper books because he refuses to find a better model for selling paper books.

Who's the real criminal here? And why do guys like you always stand up for greedy corporations?

Originally Posted by garbanzo

sorry, but this is utter crap. nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. the fact that you can't buy a particular luxury item that your heart desires does not justify going out and stealing it. it's like saying it's OK to buy drugs off the street because the government does not allow them to be sold commercially.

people pirate ebooks and everything else because they don't see any sense in paying pay for something when it can be acquired discretely and instantly from the comfort of their own home.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

Who's the real criminal here? And why do guys like you always stand up for greedy corporations?

Perhaps because people who make ludicrous assertions such as "ebooks cost virtually nothing to produce" clearly know absolutely nothing about book publishing. The majority of the cost of publishing a book comes from such things as copy editing. This has to be done for an eBook just as much as for a paper book. If you honestly believe that copy editors work for free, I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Final point about piracy actually benefiting authors? It is possible I guess, but I am far from convinced. I don't see how broad circulation among the never-pay-for-it crowd will ever benefit authors in sales and income.

By creating new readers they would have never otherwise reached. Some of those will go on to buy other products and get their friends to read them, write blogs about them, etc. How do you think the music industry's profits have risen so dramatically since mp3 downloading became mainstream?

[garbanzo]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

No, people are doing it because it is easier or the product is better. Price isn't really much of an issue at all. What people want is properly proof read books without any silly restrictions on what they can do with them either now or in the future.

i think you speak more for the people in this particular forum than for ebook downloaders in general...

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

If people could find what they wanted at a reasonable price, they wouldn't pirate it.

i couldn't disagree more. i think you undersestimate the pirate community. i know of private forums and torrent sites that literally have millions of members who are not interested in paying for something unless they have to.

And why do guys like you always stand up for greedy corporations?

i'm not standing up for anybody. i just don't think that the lack of availability of a particular item is good personal justification for pirating it. that doesn't make it OK.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps because people who make ludicrous assertions such as "ebooks cost virtually nothing to produce" clearly know absolutely nothing about book publishing. The majority of the cost of publishing a book comes from such things as copy editing. This has to be done for an eBook just as much as for a paper book. If you honestly believe that copy editors work for free, I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken.

All of that would have been done before the original hardback or paperback version was released, it would not need to be done again for an ebook edition.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

All of that would have been done before the original hardback or paperback version was released, it would not need to be done again for an ebook edition.

The work is done for the book yes, but no matter what format it's sold in - paper or electronic - those costs have to be recovered.

[GhostHawk]

Ok HarryT, enlighten me, how much do Copy editors work for?
Figure a reasonable 500 page novel.
What does it cost, 1,000$, 2,000$?

Out of that how many ebooks can they sell? An Infinite number.

So over say a 20 year period just how many copy's of an ebook get sold for a reasonably popular author? 100,000? Half a million? Heck lets be really really conservative, and plan for 20,000 over a 20 year period. How far does that 2,000$ cost go? How can you possibly justify something that costs 1$ a book when they are trying to sell them for 15$ a book? Seriously!

No I don't know the publishing world, what I do know is that once the work is done they can sell that book until the copyright runs out. Life plus 70 correct? So you have to be looking at a 100 year average for copyright. Thats selling the same book that costs you X dollars to produce once, for 100 years with no new added costs. You don't even need overhead, because you can get Amazon to sell it for you if you have the rights to it.

Its about greed, pure plain and simple.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by garbanzo

i think you speak more for the people in this particular forum than for ebook downloaders in general...



i couldn't disagree more. i think you undersestimate the pirate community. i know of private forums and torrent sites that literally have millions of members who are not interested in paying for something unless they have to.



i'm not standing up for anybody. i just don't think that the lack of availability of a particular item is good personal justification for pirating it. that doesn't make it OK.

The people in those forums won't pay for things they download even if you delete the entire internet, so there is no point worrying about any imagined loss of income from them. The publishers would be better off thinking of ways to make money from what they do, either through advertising or some form of voluntary or mandatory subscription model. Which are by a strange coincidence the ways that the operators of such websites are making money from them right now.

The real loss of income to publsihers is from the people who would be happy to pay for their ebooks but for various reasons are unable to purchase them. Those reasons include not having heard of the author, living in the wrong country, having the wrong type of e-reader, or just not being able to afford them. Most, if not all, of those restrictions are directly controlled by the publishers.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The work is done for the book yes, but no matter what format it's sold in - paper or electronic - those costs have to be recovered.

Are you saying that all the paper, printing and distribution costs associated with paper books have to be covered by the sale of ebooks? The argument is about ADDITIONAL costs incurred with an ebook edition.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

Ok HarryT, enlighten me, how much do Copy editors work for?
Figure a reasonable 500 page novel.
What does it cost, 1,000$, 2,000$?

Out of that how many ebooks can they sell? An Infinite number.

So over say a 20 year period just how many copy's of an ebook get sold for a reasonably popular author? 100,000? Half a million? Heck lets be really really conservative, and plan for 20,000 over a 20 year period. How far does that 2,000$ cost go? How can you possibly justify something that costs 1$ a book when they are trying to sell them for 15$ a book? Seriously!

No I don't know the publishing world, what I do know is that once the work is done they can sell that book until the copyright runs out. Life plus 70 correct? So you have to be looking at a 100 year average for copyright. Thats selling the same book that costs you X dollars to produce once, for 100 years with no new added costs. You don't even need overhead, because you can get Amazon to sell it for you if you have the rights to it.

Its about greed, pure plain and simple.

I suggest you take a look at this thread; it discusses the economics of the publishing business. You honestly are mistaken, I'm afraid, in believing that the costs of publishing a book are so minimal, or that publishing is a business in which anyone is going to get rich.

[foghat]

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

People don't believe in paying unreasonable amounts of money for something that costs the publisher virtually nothing to produce.

I think you are wearing rose colored lenses. Many, many goods and services are sold for much more than it costs to make/provide them. Why single out ebooks?

I could care less what it cost the publisher to make an ebook. While I agree an ebook should be priced lower than a paper book, I don't think that price discrepancy should be more than 10 or 15%.

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

Also for many of us books are not a "luxury" it is a necessity that keeps us sane, and able to deal with those around us.

Even if I were to concede (which I don't) that books are a necessity - there are thousands of public domain books available for free.

[ficbot]

But ebooks allow them to sell more copies since people like me who don't have the space to buy and store paper books will now buy them instead of getting them from the library. Si if before they would have sold 100 books and now will sell 20 ebooks too, the cost for both the print and the ebook edition should BOTH be lowered. Yet both print and ebook prices are higher than ever.