The new publishing business model

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

This actually might be interesting because it would allow for authors who might be rejected get discovered. I'm sure there are books that have been rejected by several publishers only to go on later to be big hits.

Two authors come to mind: Mitch Albom and JK Rowling. I expect that out of 10,000 authors 1 follows this path (and the odds might actually be higher than 1:10,000). But this doesn't make for a good business model.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

funny... many people attribute books of Dan Brown and other "best sellers" with the above attributes. Books which certainly have gone through the editing process with a publisher.

Only because they haven't seen some of the drek that gets released on Lulu.

As much as I think many published books have formulaic dialogue and flat characters and inane descriptions, they are much, much better than a lot of the unedited manuscripts being "self-published."

May I introduce you to The Eye of Argon, a short story written in 1970? Some self-published ebooks available today--sometimes for sale at Amazon--match it for quality.

"Prepare to embrace your creators in the stygian haunts of
hell, barbarian", gasped the first soldier.
"Only after you have kissed the fleeting stead of death,
wretch!" returned Grignr.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Two authors come to mind: Mitch Albom and JK Rowling. I expect that out of 10,000 authors 1 follows this path (and the odds might actually be higher than 1:10,000). But this doesn't make for a good business model.

Exactly the point: The current business model results in 1-10,000 books to see the light of day. A new model, taking the risk out of the publisher's equation, might allow 1-500, or even 1-50, to see the light of day.

Maybe I should ask: Is there some part of "impartial third-party post-filtering, instead of publisher pre-filtering" that does not make sense?

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Two authors come to mind: Mitch Albom and JK Rowling. I expect that out of 10,000 authors 1 follows this path (and the odds might actually be higher than 1:10,000). But this doesn't make for a good business model.

Actually, it is a very good business model. Having an author pay for all the costs to publish a book and the marketing. I think there is a profit to be made there. But, it won't be in selling the book, it would be and editing company. I could see it making a profit...if...

You can find enough authors that are willing and able to pay for this stuff up front. Which I highly doubt...

Also, would the "publisher" get any cut of the sales for a book they edited?

BOb

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Because I'm one guy, not an editor or proofer, not a CEO, and with no capital. I simply don't have the financial resources or wherewithal to do the job.

Think about what it would cost for Random House to switch to your model. Think then what Random House would have to charge an author for the editorial help. Now think:

1. How many authors would be willing to pay the inflated price for editorial help, which price includes a CEO's million-dollar salary, the overhead for several hundred editors who may or may not always be busy, the mailroom folk, the human resources department personnel, etc?
2. How would Random House be able to compete price-wise with the freelance editors who offer the same service but for half the price (or even less of a price)?

I think the idea is simply not viable and that there is no basis to assume that authors will change their current behavior of not hiring editors.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Actually, it is a very good business model. Having an author pay for all the costs to publish a book and the marketing. I think there is a profit to be made there. But, it won't be in selling the book, it would be and editing company. I could see it making a profit...if...

You can find enough authors that are willing and able to pay for this stuff up front. Which I highly doubt...

That's the problem, isn't it? 95% of authors probably think that they are in the 5% that can be published without the aid of a professional editor. We hear an endless litany here at MR about the so-called "greed" of publishers. I wonder how many of the complainers are actually aware of the amount of work that publishers do, and how much it costs?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by HarryT

$50 for an entire book? That seems way, way too low to me, I'm afraid. $50 per hour may be reasonable (although even that's on the low side), but how many hours would it take to do even a basic check of a typical novel? I'd say it would be several hours at a minimum.

I'm thinking ~1-3 hours for a novel; $25-50/hourly rate. BASIC spellcheck/grammarfix. Not actually reading the book. Run spellcheck program (amazing how many manuscripts don't even bother with that); scroll through looking for punctuation & grammar that makes the editor wince, and fix it.

If that seems unreasonably quick, maybe I could find a job in the publishing industry somewhere, 'cos that's about my skim-and-correct rate, and I don't think of myself as having extreme editing skills. (Or at least, not when I'm working that fast. I do great line-by-line editing but that takes a lot longer, and I don't expect to get paid for it; jobs involving that much detail work are really hard to find.)

I'd think real editing for novels would run at $20-$50/hour, a bit higher for "normal" nonfiction, and much higher for technical nonfic.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's the problem, isn't it? 95% of authors probably think that they are in the 5% that can be published without the aid of a professional editor. We hear an endless litany here at MR about the so-called "greed" of publishers. I wonder how many of the complainers are actually aware of the amount of work that publishers do, and how much it costs?

I for one never complained that publishers were greedy... I think businesses are in business to make money.

I just have a problem paying MORE for an ebook than I can currently buy the paper book for at a main stream retail store. So, I don't buy them... rather than complain... there's plenty out there to read that I don't think is reasonably priced.

BOb

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I suppose, on further consideration, I'm not sure what kind of rates would apply. $50-100 seems like very little for professional editing services, even fairly cursory ones, and much more than that would block most would-be self-published authors. OTOH, $50-100 for spellcheck, *basic* grammar/punctuation check (the kind that proofreading people get twitchy when they're not allowed to make), and simple formatting might be reasonable, and would greatly improve the quality of some self-published ebooks.

If you find a "professional" editor who claims they can give you editorial help for $50-$100 total cost -- RUN faster than you have ever run. It is a scam.

Professional editors with experience charge anywhere from $35 to $200+ AN HOUR in the United States. Spellcheck can be run within that $100 budget, but to check even basic grammar means one has to read the manuscript and even the speediest editor, if they are doing a decent job, can't read a 250-page manuscript in an hour or two.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Nope. In my case, my preliminary letters to publishers all resulted in the same notice: "We are no longer considering outside and un-agented works." In other words, dismissed without even a look. And some of those were the books I sell on my website right now, and seem to be entertaining a few people.

And the reason for this is that every author believes she or he is the next JK Rowling and so swamped publishers with unsolicited manuscripts. Many publishers now rely on agents to prescreen and they learn quickly which agents are trustworthy and which aren't.

I haven't read your books and I am not commenting on their quality, but it seems to me that if your books are of good quality and you have a growing audience for them, that you should be able to find a respected agent and turn those rejection letters into acceptance letters. Whether getting an agent is worthwhile, depends on what you want.

[neilmarr]

***BTW: You spelled "cardboard" and "incompetence" incorrectly above. I'll give you "catalog" because you used the British spelling so I assume that is where are you from***

Sincere apologies for the terrible typos and use of UK Standard English, BOb. I'm working on a netbook because my PC died yesterday, I can hardly see the screen and the keboard's tiny, and I'm up to the eyeballs in morphine and waiting for major surgery in a couple of days. That's why I begged leave to re-enter this debate when I'm back in the Land of the Living in a couple of weeks and can think (and type) straight. Neil

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I'm thinking ~1-3 hours for a novel; $25-50/hourly rate. BASIC spellcheck/grammarfix. Not actually reading the book. Run spellcheck program (amazing how many manuscripts don't even bother with that); scroll through looking for punctuation & grammar that makes the editor wince, and fix it.

Please, Elfwreck, see my blog post Give Me a Brake! Most, if not all, of the errors cited would have passed both spellcheck and grammarfix. Part of the problem is that authors do rely on spellcheck and grammarfix and assume if something passes those "tests" it is correct.

A professional editor cannot read a standard-size novel for grammar and spelling in 1 to 3 hours; perhaps an amateur, but certainly not a professional of any caliber.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Think about what it would cost for Random House to switch to your model. Think then what Random House would have to charge an author for the editorial help...

As you suggest, many of the traditional publishing houses would not be able to make this transition from their current organization. Others might. Maybe smaller freelancers would get most of this business, or maybe places like Random would have to scale down or break into smaller offices to do it.

Originally Posted by pilotbob

You can find enough authors that are willing and able to pay for this stuff up front. Which I highly doubt...

Also, would the "publisher" get any cut of the sales for a book they edited?

I, for one, do not doubt that some authors, not sure of whether their manuscript will do well, will pay for services to help improve its chances. Will all of them? No; they will either go the traditional route, or go it alone. This is merely another choice.

As for the publishers getting a cut, that's not the direction described by this particular model (in which the author pays for services up-front, negotiation done)... but there's no reason why an author and publisher could not make such an arrangement, possibly to lower the author's up-front cost.

Problem is, that puts the element of risk back in the publisher's hands... which will make them less likely to offer their services, except for what they consider a "sure thing," much like the system we have now.

Understand, the author is absorbing the risk instead of the publisher... but under this system, the author is more likely to get a chance to take the risk (instead of never leaving the slush pile)... and using a publisher's services will help lower that risk by improving the product.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Sincere apologies for the terrible typos and use of UK Standard English, BOb.

No worries. I was just teasing you. I just thought it was a bit ironic that in a post you were talking about authors incompetence and spelling errors while including them in said post.

It's all good! Maybe you were being punny and I just didn't get it.

BOb

[ardeegee]

I see a parallel between this topic and people who remain in slushpiles-- they are convinced that they have a great book, and no matter how often the professionals who spend their lives day in, day out tell them that they don't (probably politely at first, probably less so after many repeats) they are sure that if they just keep repeating it over and over, the pros will change their mind. Here, pro editors and publishers are telling you why your business model just won't work, but you remain convinced that if you keep telling them over and over (ignoring their reasons given) they will eventually come to believe that your plan is as brilliant as you think it is.