Review 9-6-2006

[pdam]

I like the apple white! But do agree about the dayglo ... the sales speak volumes however - I do agree about the Iliad, for me it is very easy to use (mostly ;-) intuative and pleasing to the eye.

[Riocaz]

I have to admit some of their work is gorgeous. The cube for example was gorgeous and I like the mac mini.

The original imac and the dayglo laptop's on the other hand were awful.

But we are getting off the subject. :-)

[ali]

Originally Posted by Riocaz

The fact is she did make several factual errors. Which, in my opinion, invalidates most of her points.

I don't see your "factual errors". I see she used an interesting style of writing, which is, by principle, somewhat inaccurate. But she's right in all of her points.

Originally Posted by Riocaz

The on-off switch is clearly marked on-off. No documentation is needed for that. Just a basic grasp of reading.

Wow. I guess a lot of people in this forum must be stupid then. Hey, I found it myself, too! Finally a proof I'm not stupid! Woo!

Back to the documentation: It is missing. I expected:

• Support telephone numbers (in case the device is DOA, which may happen, even if such is highly unlikely with iRex)
• A list of things supposed to be in the box (people in the UK were searching for the UK power plug that was missing in their boxes)
• How to charge, how to turn it on, how to turn it off
• Warranty statement (which is, up to my knowledge, not legally binding in electronic format)

Note that these things must be there before you charge the Iliad, start it and read the user documentation.

Originally Posted by Riocaz

PDF is the most recognised format? That statement is laughable in itself. One of maybe. It's also laughable that people expect to be able to read a full page of a document sized for a4 on a device which is smaller than a5. Downright ridiculous in fact.

Uh sorry I expected that too. Before buying, I printed some example A4 content to 8" and read it. So I figured I could read it on an 8" ebook, too. Which is obviously ridiculous, for obvious reasons, as everbody (but the stupid) must clearly see.

(Anybody else remembers the picture where you would click onto a column and it would zoom? Quick, quick, forget it! It never existed! Hush!)

Ah yes, about the PDF format: IIRC, most scientific papers are Postscript and/or PDF. Spiegel Online lets you download article in PDF. Commerical eBooks have a proprietary format or protocted PDF. Tech documentation you download is usually PDF. Even stolen ebooks in P2P systems are PDF. Ummm. Apparently, PDF is not the most recognized format. Let me think. Ah I know, you mean mp3, right? No wait, is it Word? Do I get three guesses? .xls?

Originally Posted by Riocaz

When I buy something, I investigate to the extent of my ability. She is implying that she did the same. Yet I found my way here and she diddn't

Some people have jobs, or a life. Read every forum to be found on the net? If I'd do that for every device I have to buy in my job, I'd probably been fired. No, "read everything" naturally has limitations, which are different for different people.

Originally Posted by Riocaz

You've done it several times and franky it is really annoying downright rude.

Agree. Must be my "use the same language as the opponent" attitude.

Originally Posted by Riocaz

This comment is utterly pointless. yes we are, and ooh look the current firmware is (as I stated in my comments) in my opinion close to something that can be called final.

Far away, IMO. But, naturally your view of what's needed to be "final" is the only possible one, and must be sufficient for everyone else.

Originally Posted by Riocaz

My problem isn't that the review was critical, but that it was innaccurate, and failed to mention relevant information

My problem with your review isn't that it's critical, but that it's innaccurate, and fails to mention relevant information.

For example, your endless repeating of how she can't be tech-savvy would be much more accurate if you had mentioned that "tech-savvy" appears in a paragraph that begins with "Moderator’s note:" and ends with "- David Rothman".

[ali]

I start to have fun poking at factual errors. Here's another one:

Originally Posted by Riocaz

So a "tech-savvy" "Hardware & software developer", who doesn't RTFM (well at least doesn't read it properly).

I think not reading gadget documentation is absolutely required for a real geek - or tech-savvy person.

[jæd]

Originally Posted by ali

I think not reading gadget documentation is absolutely required for a real geek - or tech-savvy person.

For "geeks" perhaps, but for those of us are professionals, reading documentation saves an awful lot of time... Of course it doesn't mean that the documentaation is going to be accurate or meaningful...

[jæd]

Originally Posted by ali

I don't see your "factual errors". I see she used an interesting style of writing, which is, by principle, somewhat inaccurate. But she's right in all of her points.

Um... No she isn't... "The documentation did not come with the device. The only paper was a 5×7 sheet that welcomes you to the world of electronic reading and then warns you that if the iLiad runs out of power your unit will be irrevocably damaged." is wrong on two points.

Firstly, there *is* documentation, its on the illiad. And secondly she has misread the upgrading instructions...

Originally Posted by ali

Some people have jobs, or a life. Read every forum to be found on the net? If I'd do that for every device I have to buy in my job, I'd probably been fired. No, "read everything" naturally has limitations, which are different for different people.

How many forums are there covering the illiad then...? I've only been able to find this one...

Originally Posted by ali

For example, your endless repeating of how she can't be tech-savvy would be much more accurate if you had mentioned that "tech-savvy" appears in a paragraph that begins with "Moderator’s note:" and ends with "- David Rothman".

"As a long time software and hardware developer..." : Dunno about you, but long-time software and hardware developers are usually quite "tech-savvy"...

[ali]

Originally Posted by jæd

Um... No she isn't... "The documentation did not come with the device. The only paper was a 5×7 sheet that welcomes you to the world of electronic reading and then warns you that if the iLiad runs out of power your unit will be irrevocably damaged." is wrong on two points.

Firstly, there *is* documentation, its on the illiad. And secondly she has misread the upgrading instructions...

Dude, is it so hard to understand that people may have different interpretations of that sentence? I also say that to friends, that the documentation didn't come with the device. The pdf on the Iliad is a user documentation past the point where you got it running. There is no documentation before that point. (And there are other interpretations of "documentation", like hardware layout, SDK API docs, ...) Every person has it's very own perception of what "the" documentation is.

For me (and her, probably), the documentation is what to consult if I can't get it running. And a documentation that is technically limited to be only readable once I don't need it anymore is equivalent to "no" documentation.



Let me just rephrase this, so that everybody gets a chance to understand it: There is no such thing as "facts" in this discussion. Facts don't exist. And while Mrs. Miller Cote did show what her viewpoint and assume type of use is, the people in this forum were talking about "facts" and "factual errors", which is ridiculous.

This ever-repeating point about bricking the device: The way she described the note on bricking the Iliad was very nice. It's an overdramatization of her surprise that the only written documentation talked about breaking it. It's okay how she wrote it, because it's a review and clearly her personal opinion. I suspect people talking about factual errors here are unable to understand rhetoric.

[Riocaz]

Originally Posted by ali

I don't see your "factual errors". I see she used an interesting style of writing, which is, by principle, somewhat inaccurate. But she's right in all of her points.

So you don't see any errors but admit her review was somewhat innaccurate due to the style of writing. Anyone else see a contradiction.

The errors have already been pointed out, as have the omissions she made.

Originally Posted by ali

Wow. I guess a lot of people in this forum must be stupid then. Hey, I found it myself, too! Finally a proof I'm not stupid! Woo!

Again you put words in my mouth... I have never accused people on this board of being stupid and never would.

Back to the documentation: It is missing. I expected:
*Support telephone numbers (in case the device is DOA, which may happen, even if such is highly unlikely with iRex)

Yep I'll grant you that is a good point. Though I vaguely remember a telephone number being either on the back of the box or on that sheet of paper. Then again I may be wrong as I don't have either with me to check.

*A list of things supposed to be in the box (people in the UK were searching for the UK power plug that was missing in their boxes)

Why? surely it would make sense for it to be on the documemtation on the iLiad.

*How to charge, how to turn it on, how to turn it off

See now it really bugs me when companies put in patronising documentation.

* Warranty statement (which is, up to my knowledge, not legally binding in electronic format)

Again you have got me, You may well be right. If it's a legal requirement then they should provide it no question.

Note that these things must be there before you charge the Iliad, start it and read the user documentation.

Err, but the iLiad's come with enough charge to read the manual.

Uh sorry I expected that too. Before buying, I printed some example A4 content to 8" and read it. So I figured I could read it on an 8" ebook, too. Which is obviously ridiculous, for obvious reasons, as everbody (but the stupid) must clearly see.

What resolution is your printer, did you set it to match that of the iLiad, did you print on light grey paper, and stick it under a thin sheet of glass? If not then you made an assumption.

(Anybody else remembers the picture where you would click onto a column and it would zoom? Quick, quick, forget it! It never existed! Hush!)

I remember that :-)

Ah yes, about the PDF format: IIRC, most scientific papers are Postscript and/or PDF. Spiegel Online lets you download article in PDF. Commerical eBooks have a proprietary format or protocted PDF. Tech documentation you download is usually PDF. Even stolen ebooks in P2P systems are PDF. Ummm. Apparently, PDF is not the most recognized format. Let me think. Ah I know, you mean mp3, right? No wait, is it Word? Do I get three guesses? .xls?

Again you are putting words in my mouth. I was referring to html. As the current supported formats are quite limited and do not include "word" or .xls that is only a small logical leap.

Some people have jobs, or a life. Read every forum to be found on the net? If I'd do that for every device I have to buy in my job, I'd probably been fired. No, "read everything" naturally has limitations, which are different for different people.

So you have failed to convince me of your opinion and have decided to resort to insults. I have both a life and a job. Thanks.

There is only one forum I am aware of currently discussing the iLiad, and it's the one which has been at the top of google when searching for "irex iliad" since well before the iLiad became available for sale in any way.

I restate my opinion, that if she diddn't get here and notice the duscussions about the limitations of the iLiad, that she diddn't look.

Agree. Must be my "use the same language as the opponent" attitude.

Please give examples where I have told you to stop saying something. Or where I have repeatedly put words in other people mouths. You've do it constantly. You are not using my language you are just being rude.

Far away, IMO. But, naturally your view of what's needed to be "final" is the only possible one, and must be sufficient for everyone else.

Not at all it's my opinion, Ours differ. Opinions in this instance are neither right or wrong they are just... opinions.

My problem with your review isn't that it's critical, but that it's innaccurate, and fails to mention relevant information.

For example, your endless repeating of how she can't be tech-savvy would be much more accurate if you had mentioned that "tech-savvy" appears in a paragraph that begins with "Moderator’s note:" and ends with "- David Rothman".

You are quite correct, I should have stated that I was quoting David Rothman there.

Also the link to the original article was given at the beginning of the thread, I was assuming that people would read that first, and it would be obvious.

[R2D2]

Hmmm...time to join the meditation thread?

[ath]

Originally Posted by jæd

It does when the reviewer states she read everything available about the product and then makes several basic mistakes...!

"I read everything I could find about the device".

From 'everything I could find' to 'everything available' is quite a bit to go.

[jæd]

Originally Posted by ali

Dude, is it so hard to understand that people may have different interpretations of that sentence? I also say that to friends, that the documentation didn't come with the device. The pdf on the Iliad is a user documentation past the point where you got it running. There is no documentation before that point. (And there are other interpretations of "documentation", like hardware layout, SDK API docs, ...) Every person has it's very own perception of what "the" documentation is.

For me (and her, probably), the documentation is what to consult if I can't get it running. And a documentation that is technically limited to be only readable once I don't need it anymore is equivalent to "no" documentation.



Let me just rephrase this, so that everybody gets a chance to understand it: There is no such thing as "facts" in this discussion. Facts don't exist. And while Mrs. Miller Cote did show what her viewpoint and assume type of use is, the people in this forum were talking about "facts" and "factual errors", which is ridiculous.

This ever-repeating point about bricking the device: The way she described the note on bricking the Iliad was very nice. It's an overdramatization of her surprise that the only written documentation talked about breaking it. It's okay how she wrote it, because it's a review and clearly her personal opinion. I suspect people talking about factual errors here are unable to understand rhetoric.

Right... So her review is just a factless overdramatisiation of the illiad...? Right, thats goning to be handy for all the potential buyers. And I think thats what I've been saying her review is all along...

Oh, and has anyone else noticed the lack of internal consistency to Mrs Miller Cotes review, sorry, "factless overdramatisiation". First she states there are no docs provided, and then she tells us "All of the literature, packaging and documentation clearly state that the device reads PDFs".

[jæd]

Originally Posted by ath

"I read everything I could find about the device".

From 'everything I could find' to 'everything available' is quite a bit to go.

Back to my point that there isn't much to read up on the illiad... Unless of course you have links to all this information everyone else can find apart from me...!

[ali]

Originally Posted by Riocaz

Please give examples where I have told you to stop saying something. Or where I have repeatedly put words in other people mouths. You've do it constantly. You are not using my language you are just being rude.

Read your original review: You disagree with her opinion. Your response attacks the person, not the opinion.

You repeatedly make fun of her being "tech-savvy" (I'm sure she is, btw). You fail to show that what she writes is wrong, you just find mere minor inaccuracies, and hence you make fun of her. Bad style, dude. Rude.

You even wrote "Thought I should mention it here, as iRex may want/be able to take action about the inaccuracies in the review". Wow. You can't stand her opinion so you suggest to delete it. You even post it in the iRex forum just for the reason to have them take action against something. Sounds like (german word, sorry) Blockwartmentalität to me.

And all the things you write are really, really minor inaccuracies. Compare these things with the gross false advertisements and announcements from iRex, the guys you defend here.

Since the Iliad came out, there were the same complaints over and over again. And it included the lack of written documentation, the failure to read preformatted PDFs, and problems with protected PDFs. There were really many users who fell in those traps. It is good to have it in a review.

And you were selling people your opinion as globally valid facts. You said documentation for the on/off switch wasn't needed (but people didn't find it). You said it's ridiculous to assume you could read A4 content (but lots of people assumed precisely that). You said it's people's fault to think it could read their PDFs, just because it doesn't explicitly state so in the shop (but lots of people have issues with that).

I have the impression that you are completely unable to see that other people think different than you. All I read in your posts is "they think different than me, so they must be false, because I'm superior". (And I can figure what would happened if the Iliad wouldn't suit your personal needs. Say, it couldn't read documents longer than 50 pages because scientific papers are usually shorter, and hey, they didn't explicitly state that in the shop. You'd explode and go completely berserk. IMO.)

[NatCh]

I'd like to suggest that this discussion has gotten well beyond the point of being useful, perhaps it would be better to leave it for a time?

You've each got some valid points, and it also seems to me that you each have just a bit of resistance to admitting the other guy's points.

So can we maybe leave it here and go on to something else?

I really appreciate the attitude of calm, respectful idea exchange that MobileRead, and MobileReaders maintain, and I'd really like it to stay that way.

It's understandable for folks get a bit ... overengaged sometimes, but I'd like to suggest we step back, take a breath, and remember what we're about.


Thanks, from one of those bellicose americans

[ali]

I'll go see Dieter Nuhr (german comedian) now. No more posts from me for now.