The fight for a reflowable e-document standard - Page 3

Xenophon · 09-08-2006, 10:48 AM

Jorgen wrote:

Quote:

I have seen languages that promised to be the last relevant: Ada, Eiffel, C++, Java, C## and what do you know: the only language that is forever is good old C.

I'm not sure about the other languages on your list, but I can say with some confidence that the designers of Ada did not claim that it would be the last relevant language -- and James Gosling certainly doesn't make that claim for Java, either. As for languages being "forever," the last study I saw seemed to say that C and Java are only just now catching up with COBOL and Fortran in number of lines of code in fielded (and still maintained) systems. C isn't forever (yet, at least), when compared to COBOL or Fortran.

Xenophon

[obligatory on-topic coment]
Is there an OpenReader program in the works for any of the eInk readers? NatCh is quite correct to focus on that important question...
[/obligatory on-topic coment]

davidrothman · 09-12-2006, 04:36 AM

Hear, hear! I agree with folks about the importance of the question. Below is the extent to which Mark Carey from OSoft, the first implementer of OpenReader, has gone public on the issue. If dotReader does appear on the iLiad, that might be very good news indeed for owners. It's like the old XyWrite word-processor; the programmers are maniacal about speed. No claims in advance in regard to a specific machine like the iLiad (assuming dotReader is headed in that direction). Meanwhile thanks for everyone's interest. I hope folks will drop by dotReader.com and offer the usual smart feedback that MR readers give. - David

http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=5401#comment-78930

Carey quote:

While I can’t publicly state whether we are or are not developing a version of the dotReader using OpenReader for the iLiad, the IDEA of an open source reader for an e-ink platform makes sense.

1. The dotReader has a very small footprint and does and excellent job managing memory. For example, it renders only what needs to be displayed vs PDF which must load the entire document.

2. The dotReader is language agnostic. While it may read OpenReader, plug-ins will allow it to read other formats as well. This adds a lot of versatility to the reader rather than tying a single format to a specific machine.

3. E-books tend to focus on the U.S. market. However, there are growing markets in other parts of the world that already have broad acceptance of open source software. The dotReader can be branded to meet the needs of any business application. As for e-ink readers, customization will be necessary because the dotReader is more capable than current e-ink technology permits.

NatCh · 09-12-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidrothman

dotReader is more capable than current e-ink technology permits.

So is the current Palm OS! And the last couple of revs for that matter.

rkfoster · 09-15-2006, 07:42 PM

This has been a very interesting discussion about DRM and eBook formatting standards. I realize that this site is primarily focused on "Mobile" eBooks but I think many discussions in this area overlook, or wander away from, the question of what is a "book", electronic or otherwise.

I am a big collector and reader of paper books. My budget shows that, unfortunately, every time I look at it. But with a paper book I know a lot of things: I know where it is in my house, I know by the cover who the author is and what the subject is, I know by the size and the book spine on my shelf what it is, I have something that is very often a work of art in itself with beautiful cover art, I can skim the entire book to get a quick idea of what's in it, and I can do whatever I want with it after I've bought it.

Both DRM and ebook format standards have yet to make much of that possible for "eBooks".

I tend to prefer Adobe PDF because it is the closest thing, visually, to a paper book. My favorite software reader used to be Glassbook Reader because it did a simple thing of providing a library showing cover images the way iTunes does for CD artwork. Of course Adobe bought them out and dumped the technology in the trash, I've never seen it since.

The idea that just taking html/xml data, putting it into some file format, displaying it on screen, and calling that an ebook leaves me unenthused. Sure if those words are by an important Author then fine that's an ebook. The problem is that people don't want to sit at their desks and read a book on screen, or on some tiny screen on a portable device. What they want is something that works for them -- the way a paper back book does. We always come back to the paper book.

I guess my main point is this, until someone/some company gets the combination of reader device, reader software, reader rights, and delivery system right then ebooks will not take off. They've all tried it and so far no one's gotten it right. And now the only solution is to go to a place like Fictionwise that allows you to get multiple formats after you've purchased the book (or manybooks.net that I didn't know about before, thanks) so that wherever you want to read you have the proper format.

The general public is never going to accept this type of run around. They will just go to the local bookstore and buy a paperback.

tribble · 09-16-2006, 02:43 AM

Well, the ebook and ebook readers in its current form do not represent the ideal form of what i would like to see. This is what i would want:

1. My ebook reader should be a book. It should have about a hundred pages and a built in computer, with a fast screen (if that works with eink later, then no need. The pages should be as flexible as the are in curent books and you should be able to put different parts of books on different sections of the reader. This way you can flip through pages quickly. You should be able to make annotations and bookmarks to pages, like on a real book. Like putting a post-it on it.
And ideally, the cover would be eink aswell, so that you can have a nice coverart aswell

2. the ebooks should be formatted in a way, you can read them on different devices and have the same paginagtion but different font sizes. You should be able to save annotations and bookmarks with them and they should have a nice cover. You should have the option to display the publisher or author intended layout or display a reflow, with different font, margin, line-height settings.

3. DRM should be gone. But if necessary, i would prefer a model, where you can just lend your book to someone else. Or if you give them a copy, they automatically pay a small fee, directly to the author

(publisher gets its share from him, depending on their contract) And i know, there are too many problems at the moment to make this seem remotely possible.

4. You need a portable bookshelf. If the reader has a fast screen, you can pan along your books, just like on a bookshelf and pick the ones you want. That would be awesome.

Thats what i would like to see. There are more things i would want, but these are the most important. I really hope that we are getting there while i am still alive

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09-12-2006, 04:36 AM	#32
davidrothman Connoisseur Posts: 60 Karma: 32 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Alexandria, VA Device: Paperwhite, $50 Fire, iPad Air 2, Nexus 6, Kobo Aura H2O	Hear, hear! I agree with folks about the importance of the question. Below is the extent to which Mark Carey from OSoft, the first implementer of OpenReader, has gone public on the issue. If dotReader does appear on the iLiad, that might be very good news indeed for owners. It's like the old XyWrite word-processor; the programmers are maniacal about speed. No claims in advance in regard to a specific machine like the iLiad (assuming dotReader is headed in that direction). Meanwhile thanks for everyone's interest. I hope folks will drop by dotReader.com and offer the usual smart feedback that MR readers give. - David http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=5401#comment-78930 Carey quote: While I can’t publicly state whether we are or are not developing a version of the dotReader using OpenReader for the iLiad, the IDEA of an open source reader for an e-ink platform makes sense. 1. The dotReader has a very small footprint and does and excellent job managing memory. For example, it renders only what needs to be displayed vs PDF which must load the entire document. 2. The dotReader is language agnostic. While it may read OpenReader, plug-ins will allow it to read other formats as well. This adds a lot of versatility to the reader rather than tying a single format to a specific machine. 3. E-books tend to focus on the U.S. market. However, there are growing markets in other parts of the world that already have broad acceptance of open source software. The dotReader can be branded to meet the needs of any business application. As for e-ink readers, customization will be necessary because the dotReader is more capable than current e-ink technology permits.

09-15-2006, 07:42 PM	#34
rkfoster Junior Member Posts: 3 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Michigan, USA Device: Hipster PDA	This has been a very interesting discussion about DRM and eBook formatting standards. I realize that this site is primarily focused on "Mobile" eBooks but I think many discussions in this area overlook, or wander away from, the question of what is a "book", electronic or otherwise. I am a big collector and reader of paper books. My budget shows that, unfortunately, every time I look at it. But with a paper book I know a lot of things: I know where it is in my house, I know by the cover who the author is and what the subject is, I know by the size and the book spine on my shelf what it is, I have something that is very often a work of art in itself with beautiful cover art, I can skim the entire book to get a quick idea of what's in it, and I can do whatever I want with it after I've bought it. Both DRM and ebook format standards have yet to make much of that possible for "eBooks". I tend to prefer Adobe PDF because it is the closest thing, visually, to a paper book. My favorite software reader used to be Glassbook Reader because it did a simple thing of providing a library showing cover images the way iTunes does for CD artwork. Of course Adobe bought them out and dumped the technology in the trash, I've never seen it since. The idea that just taking html/xml data, putting it into some file format, displaying it on screen, and calling that an ebook leaves me unenthused. Sure if those words are by an important Author then fine that's an ebook. The problem is that people don't want to sit at their desks and read a book on screen, or on some tiny screen on a portable device. What they want is something that works for them -- the way a paper back book does. We always come back to the paper book. I guess my main point is this, until someone/some company gets the combination of reader device, reader software, reader rights, and delivery system right then ebooks will not take off. They've all tried it and so far no one's gotten it right. And now the only solution is to go to a place like Fictionwise that allows you to get multiple formats after you've purchased the book (or manybooks.net that I didn't know about before, thanks) so that wherever you want to read you have the proper format. The general public is never going to accept this type of run around. They will just go to the local bookstore and buy a paperback.

09-16-2006, 02:43 AM	#35
tribble iLiad Maniac Posts: 1,382 Karma: 2369 Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Device: Bookeen Opus (i love that thing) and iPad (what an irony)	Well, the ebook and ebook readers in its current form do not represent the ideal form of what i would like to see. This is what i would want: 1. My ebook reader should be a book. It should have about a hundred pages and a built in computer, with a fast screen (if that works with eink later, then no need. The pages should be as flexible as the are in curent books and you should be able to put different parts of books on different sections of the reader. This way you can flip through pages quickly. You should be able to make annotations and bookmarks to pages, like on a real book. Like putting a post-it on it. And ideally, the cover would be eink aswell, so that you can have a nice coverart aswell 2. the ebooks should be formatted in a way, you can read them on different devices and have the same paginagtion but different font sizes. You should be able to save annotations and bookmarks with them and they should have a nice cover. You should have the option to display the publisher or author intended layout or display a reflow, with different font, margin, line-height settings. 3. DRM should be gone. But if necessary, i would prefer a model, where you can just lend your book to someone else. Or if you give them a copy, they automatically pay a small fee, directly to the author (publisher gets its share from him, depending on their contract) And i know, there are too many problems at the moment to make this seem remotely possible. 4. You need a portable bookshelf. If the reader has a fast screen, you can pan along your books, just like on a bookshelf and pick the ones you want. That would be awesome. Thats what i would like to see. There are more things i would want, but these are the most important. I really hope that we are getting there while i am still alive

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