Reasons you have not paid for a 'donationware' book?

[Kevin2960]

Oh and the Poll really needs an option to say you haven't downloaded it !

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

Does it matter what they are sold as ? the point surely is the honesty of the "Buyer", and a "Lot" but "Not All" never intend to pay, they just take anyway, which is kind of my point !

Yes it matters - the situations are not comparable. With the ebooks, they are offered on a "pay if you like them" basis. If these poll results are anything to go by, the vast majority of downloads don't represent someone reading the book - they can't resist a freebie, download it, and haven't got around to reading it yet. Given the amount of free material available, this is not surprising.

It's not that I don't sypathise with the author - I want to find a model that works for everyone, which will no doubt evolve in time. But it isn't right to paint the people who download something offered on this basis as thieves - they are not.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

Thanks Geoff. I've received a lot of benefit from MR, and I'd be happy to repay in some way.

I imagine that if everyone who downloaded a book paid as little as a dollar each time (assuming that he liked the book), the site would have no financial worries. But I'm just guessing. Maybe it doesn't have any financial worries now!

I am certain you are not alone. There are possibly a number here who would willingly contribute, even if they don't download - but that is a issue for Alex to consider.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

It's not that I don't sypathise with the author - I want to find a model that works for everyone, which will no doubt evolve in time. But it isn't right to paint the people who download something offered on this basis as thieves - they are not.

I agree.

But even if there were a large number of freeloaders; that of itself doesn't mean the donation model can't work.
E.g if only 10% of downloaders pay for it, the returns could still be greater for the author than the returns from 100% of pbook buyers.

[Kevin2960]

Ben, I understand your point, but as original stated, people just are not paying, through forgetfulness, dishonesty, or sheer bloody mindedness, doesn't matter, the Author put trust in people, and here o this site, people are too ready to accept that behaviour ....maybe I got it wrong, maybe it is acceptable ? ....... I personally don't think so, thats all !

[Kevin2960]

yes not all are thieves, most are not ! but the attitude here appears to support thieves rather than the Author, and there are still a lot who do abuse the site, which is such a shame as the site and lots of the people are fantastic !

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I agree.

But even if there were a large number of freeloaders; that of itself doesn't mean the donation model can't work.
E.g if only 10% of downloaders pay for it, the returns could still be greater for the author than the returns from 100% of pbook buyers.

That would mean that at least 10% had read the book and that is very unlikely. I really think you have to talk in terms of readers instead. Most people that buy a paper book will read it eventually. Since the cost to store the book is usually high you do not want to buy to many books that you will never read.

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

Ben, I understand your point, but as original stated, people just are not paying, through forgetfulness, dishonesty, or sheer bloody mindedness, doesn't matter, the Author put trust in people, and here o this site, people are too ready to accept that behaviour ....maybe I got it wrong, maybe it is acceptable ? ....... I personally don't think so, thats all !

There were 144 payments for 100,000 downloads. Perhaps I am naive, but I have more faith in humanity, particularly in the book-reading part of it, than to accuse 99.8x% of them of being thieves. You say that people are too ready to accept "that behaviour" - but what behaviour, exactly? The problem with this situation is that we don't have the facts about what people did. It's possible (though unlikely) that everyone who read and enjoyed the book paid for it. It's possible (though unlikely) that 100,000 people read the book, but only 144 people paid for it.

We don't have many reliable figures on ebook sales, but JA Konrath has shared some of his here. He's selling a few 100 copies of many of his titles. His free title has had over 100,000 (ref.). This suggests to me that the volumes that Richard saw might be typical. Now, you can interpret this as "everyone is a thief and the world is going to the dogs", or as "it's human nature to grab a freebie, even if only 1 in 1000 people who do so are actually going to use it". I prefer the latter, and in a digital world where the freebie costs nothing, I don't see the harm in people hoarding a copy.

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

yes not all are thieves, most are not ! but the attitude here appears to support thieves rather than the Author, and there are still a lot who do abuse the site, which is such a shame as the site and lots of the people are fantastic !

Nobody who fails to pay for "donationware" is a thief - they haven't even broken civil law, as far as I can see. Not even people who illegally copy content are thieves - they are illegally infringing copyright, which is not the same. I have been a victim of both theft and copyright infringement and, trust me, theft is a lot worse.

This kind of emotive language does nothing for the debate, other than to turn it into a slanging match.

I can't speak for anyone else's attitude, but my attitude is not to "support thieves rather than the Author", but rather to attempt to have a rational discussion.

Looking at the figures from JA Konrath, it may be that the ebook market is, as yet, too small to support an author unless they are (a) very prolific and (b) skilled at marketing their ebooks.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by tompe

That would mean that at least 10% had read the book and that is very unlikely.

Yes, but it could be 0.1% and still theoretically give the author a bigger return than other models.
I think the only thing that matters is the number of people that pay; the number who don't is irrelevant.
As the ebook market grows, we'll probably see both numbers increase.

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

Oh and the Poll really needs an option to say you haven't downloaded it !

No it doesn't, because it's about people 'who downloaded the book' and then didn't pay for it. If you never downloaded one, you don't really apply to the sample this poll is aiming for.

[Kevin2960]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

There were 144 payments for 100,000 downloads. Perhaps I am naive, but I have more faith in humanity, particularly in the book-reading part of it, than to accuse 99.8x% of them of being thieves. You say that people are too ready to accept "that behaviour" - but what behaviour, exactly? The problem with this situation is that we don't have the facts about what people did. It's possible (though unlikely) that everyone who read and enjoyed the book paid for it. It's possible (though unlikely) that 100,000 people read the book, but only 144 people paid for it.

We don't have many reliable figures on ebook sales, but JA Konrath has shared some of his here. He's selling a few 100 copies of many of his titles. His free title has had over 100,000 (ref.). This suggests to me that the volumes that Richard saw might be typical. Now, you can interpret this as "everyone is a thief and the world is going to the dogs", or as "it's human nature to grab a freebie, even if only 1 in 1000 people who do so are actually going to use it". I prefer the latter, and in a digital world where the freebie costs nothing, I don't see the harm in people hoarding a copy.


Nobody who fails to pay for "donationware" is a thief - they haven't even broken civil law, as far as I can see. Not even people who illegally copy content are thieves - they are illegally infringing copyright, which is not the same. I have been a victim of both theft and copyright infringement and, trust me, theft is a lot worse.

This kind of emotive language does nothing for the debate, other than to turn it into a slanging match.

I can't speak for anyone else's attitude, but my attitude is not to "support thieves rather than the Author", but rather to attempt to have a rational discussion.

Looking at the figures from JA Konrath, it may be that the ebook market is, as yet, too small to support an author unless they are (a) very prolific and (b) skilled at marketing their ebooks.

I am sorry Ben,

a) That you have been a victim of theft, and of Copyright Infringement, I think them equal in all honesty

b) That i have to again disagree with you, It is morally wrong, I Don't think we are given the right to help ourselves, just to take and make fair payment, and to me it sounded in the original post, that the author was upset and felt cheated by people downloading the book in large numbers, but so very very few making ANY payment at all,

anyway I have had my fair share of this thread, I still think attitudes need to change, A lot of members here moan about being riped of by publishers, but then dont think it wrong to not make even token payments for eBooks, I can't see how BOTH attitudes can be held by one person,

Sorry Again Ben,

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

I am sorry Ben,

Three sorry's in one post - stop it, you're entitled to your opinion!
(You're just wrong - sorry!)

a) That you have been a victim of theft, and of Copyright Infringement, I think them equal in all honesty

Equal? They don't feel equal. In my case, illegal copying applied to software that I'd written. I treat it as a fact of life that some people will break the copy protection and not pay for it. It doesn't feel like a big deal to me, and I'm not sure whether it cost me any significant volume of sales. On the other hand, having someone break into my house and steal things felt very bad.

b) That i have to again disagree with you, It is morally wrong, I Don't think we are given the right to help ourselves, just to take and make fair payment, and to me it sounded in the original post, that the author was upset and felt cheated by people downloading the book in large numbers, but so very very few making ANY payment at all,

Remember, what we're talking about here is content that was offered for free download, for people to pay for if they liked it. How is it morally bad to download it but not get around to reading it? The author gave the right to help ourselves - there was no illegal copying in this example. What would be bad is if lots of people read and enjoyed it and didn't pay - but we don't know that this happened.

A lot of members here moan about being riped of by publishers, but then dont think it wrong to not make even token payments for eBooks, I can't see how BOTH attitudes can be held by one person

I think that you're missing the nuances here. There are people who think that it's always bad, and people who think that it's always OK, but for most people, it depends on the circumstances as to whether one should have to pay for content. When it's convenient to pay for quality at a fair price, most people will pay.

I don't think that the impression that "a lot of members" here don't "make even token payments for eBooks" is right. I think that most members here are delighted to find authors, like Richard, who make their books available at a fair price. You'll find lots of people bending over backwards - even using false addresses etc. - in order to pay for ebooks. There is wide frustration that publishers seem to be going out of their way to make it difficult to buy ebooks straightforwardly.

[SimonSays]

I have downloaded many free books. Most I haven't even seen a "donation" link.

IMHO- when a author puts out an ebook for free download then they should anticipate a lot of people downloading it. If they put up a link for donation, sure they may get some, but it shouldn't be expected and it shouldn't definitely be demanded- it is a suggestion. If you want money for each download, make it a pay ebook and not free

Now, there are a feww books that I have read that I plan on making donations to the author because I enjoyed their stories. I just hope they aren't sitting around calling me a thief because I downloaded their book for free, as it was offered, and haven't gotten around to making a donation, YET

It would help greatly if at the end of the book would be a page with information on how to make a donation because sometimes I forget where I even downloaded the book from

[basschick]

when i go to a physical bookstore, i tend to respectfully (no bending or damaging the books) read a little to see if i'll like a book before i buy it. since in my life i have bought literally thousands of books (okay, a bunch were replacements, but still...), i don't see that the publishers are missing out. before i buy on fictionwise, i tend to read the sample. same anywhere there are samples. if i don't like it, i don't buy it.

i have downloaded a lot of ebooks that i didn't like, but i also didn't read more than a couple pages. should i feel obligated to pay or be branded a thief? i didn't read more than i would have a pbook that i didn't buy in a store, and the author usually says they'd appreciate a donation if i liked the book.

in some cases, i didn't donate but bought the sequels. in a couple cases, the author asked for reviews, which i gladly wrote.

and to be honest, i download a lot more than i read. why? because what i heard about a title sounded interesting, and i planned to read it later. i read on a cybook gen3, so a link at the end of the books wouldn't be useful, but a reminder that donations are accepted if i liked the book with a url would be handy, actually.

[nikkie]

Originally Posted by basschick

when i go to a physical bookstore, i tend to respectfully (no bending or damaging the books) read a little to see if i'll like a book before i buy it. since in my life i have bought literally thousands of books (okay, a bunch were replacements, but still...), i don't see that the publishers are missing out.

Oh, I am bad about this. A few weeks ago I went to B&N to pick up some technical books and picked up 15 on one topic, skimmed through all of them, and bought 4. The rest were garbage, but those four had what I needed, and were worth paying $30-$50 a pop for. I would have bought them in ebook format, but I don't have a large format eReader yet, and most of them weren't available.

I do feel rather like like a pinchpenny though when I go to B&N to research a topic, skim through 15, and then buy them in the Kindle app on my way out...