Geographic restrictions inside EU (?)

[omk3]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

I don't know for sure about EU. Generally, my understanding is that you're correct, but there could be specific exceptions-and, WRT Greek customs, what happens if the buyer doesn't pay the customs? Or, more relevant to what I was describing, if it's not a matter of customs duty, but of it being illegal to import the article? I guess the question is, who's responsible for ensuring that it's legal to import the article into the country? Another way of putting it is, who's responsible for ensuring that it's legal to sell the product to the buyer?

If the buyer doesn't pay the customs, I think they just keep the item there, but I'm not really sure. I see what you mean about the legal issue, but I think in most coutries importing a small quantity of any non-illegal product (eg drugs) for personal use is not illegal as long as customs are paid. I may be wrong of course, I'm using logic instead of actual knowledge on the issue

[asjogren]

Is this getting a little off track? For items delivered electronically, possibly via VPN, how is Customs going to get involved? Does Customs get involved for internet purchases of (legal) Pornography subscriptions? There is probably a bit more money involded with Pornography than eBooks.

Again, how does "traveling" eBook purchases via the Internet differ substantially from traveling paper book purchases? I don't have to demonstrate residency, let alone identity, to buy a paper book. Why should this be a requirement for eBooks?

[Pardoz]

Originally Posted by asjogren

Does Customs get involved for internet purchases of (legal) Pornography subscriptions?

Only cases I've heard of involved stuff that was legal in country A (where it was hosted) but not in country B (where the buyer lived), and that's a different question.

Again, how does "traveling" eBook purchases via the Internet differ substantially from traveling paper book purchases?

One word: convenience.

If I'm in the UK, and I want to buy a pbook from a US vendor (probably because nobody in the UK has bought the right to sell it there), it's inconvenient - shipping alone can double the price, and it's a hassle to find a vendor and arrange payment and shipping (especially in the pre-Internet days). This served as a natural limit on people buying books outside their 'proper' geographical area, so publishers never saw any reason to make an issue of it, even with the rise of online pbook stores like Amazon.

Nowadays, if I'm in the UK and I want to buy an ebook from a US vendor (because it's not available for sale in the UK, or the US edition is cheaper, or I can only find it in my preferred format, or whatever) it's just as convenient as shopping anywhere else - I click, I enter my payment details, I download. No 'natural' geographical restriction. End result, publishers send around Luca Brasi to enforce the status quo geographical model on ebook sellers.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by asjogren

Is this getting a little off track? For items delivered electronically, possibly via VPN, how is Customs going to get involved?

Here, you're confusing "is it legal" with "can I get away with it". But you're right that this is getting off topic as the original question was why there were GR within the EU. My point was that it's perfectly valid for companies to decide that international sales are too complicated-but AFAIK that should *not* be the case in the EU-so it's probably inertia.

Originally Posted by asjogren

Again, how does "traveling" eBook purchases via the Internet differ substantially from traveling paper book purchases? I don't have to demonstrate residency, let alone identity, to buy a paper book. Why should this be a requirement for eBooks?

Because, according to law (international law, I believe, but definitely the law in all countries I'm familiar with) the 'place of sale' for a pbook is the location from where it's shipped while the 'place of sale' for an ebook is the location where it's bought. (And that has a couple of definitions too, so it can get really complicated.) As to why it's different-no valid explanation I know of. (There are a couple of legal decisions that might be the basis for it, but I'm not sure I agree with them in the first place.)

Why's the location important to whether or not you can buy the book? Other than the previously mentioned possibility that purchase/ownership of it might be illegal in some locations, there are also contract restrictions. These, technically, don't prevent you from buying the book, but they do prevent people from selling it to you. (Or course if you misrepresent your location in order to buy the book, then that *might* be an illegal act on your part. Otherwise, if the seller simply doesn't check, then the illegal act is on their part.) BTW, an interesting point about pbooks is that GR only applies to the original sale. AFAIK, if you legally buy it in, say, Germany, you can then take it to, say, Italy & legally resell it even if it's illegal to buy it from that publisher in Italy. (Convoluted, but I think you know what I mean.)

[Pardoz]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

Because, according to law (international law, I believe, but definitely the law in all countries I'm familiar with) the 'place of sale' for a pbook is the location from where it's shipped while the 'place of sale' for an ebook is the location where it's bought.

Is that actually a point of law, though? I've looked for cites, never found one that pins this down in law, as opposed to custom. I've found plenty that define 'point of sale' as the location of the seller, mostly related to mail-order, but nothing the other way.

These [contract restrictions], technically, don't prevent you from buying the book, but they do prevent people from selling it to you.

I've never seen a contract between an author and a retailer (or even a wholesaler) that would prevent retail sales of books based on geographical location. Contracts between authors and publishers, yes. It's a fairly fine hair, granted - the retailer has to get stock somewhere, and it's going to be tricky if nobody has rights to publish the book in that country - but there's nothing actually preventing the retailer from making the sale, AFAIK.

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by Pardoz

I've never seen a contract between an author and a retailer (or even a wholesaler) that would prevent retail sales of books based on geographical location. Contracts between authors and publishers, yes. It's a fairly fine hair, granted - the retailer has to get stock somewhere, and it's going to be tricky if nobody has rights to publish the book in that country - but there's nothing actually preventing the retailer from making the sale, AFAIK.

The reason that independent US ebook stores started working harder on enforcing geographic restrictions is that at least one big publisher pulled all their ebooks from the stores until they got their act together. So it is the publishers who are in the driving seat, and they mostly like the status quo.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

The reason that independent US ebook stores started working harder on enforcing geographic restrictions is that at least one big publisher pulled all their ebooks from the stores until they got their act together.

It was the British publisher, Hachette, if memory serves me correctly. They got very cross that US eBook stores were selling to UK customers, when they (Hachette) had exclusive UK sales rights.

[zerospinboson]

Here's one that's bound to confuse the hell out of everyone:

Please note that customers in the US and Canada may be restricted to one copy of certain book titles because multiple copies may infringe US copyright laws.

Anyone know which clause of a copyright law this would offend?
(Perhaps a clause that says "North-American customers are not allowed to buy books cheaply overseas"?)