Microsoft and the Xbox - Page 3

Shaggy · 11-12-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Well so too is there no absolute right of the Xbox owner to access to the Xbox live service.

There is if MS is taking their money for access to that service.

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Cite?

And they need to stop making it necessary for, say, Australians to mod their consoles to defeat region locking. By dropping region locking. The PS3 has!

No cite, just ran into cheaters playing and saw the odd article/forum post here and there over the past couple years about modded consoles allowing hacks in the pirated games to cheat, modded controllers for rapid fire, lag switches etc.

And yes, they should drop region locking for sure. Conversely, Australia's government could just quit banning games and being prudes in general.

DawnFalcon · 11-12-2009, 04:01 PM

The hacking thing? It's an urban legend. No more. Altered controllers, and some people do alter them, don't need any form of modchip but offer a minimal advantage (if any). The controller rate limiting and so on is done on the Xbox itself.

And no, I think you mistake why cracking region locking is legal in Australia. It's because they tend to be lumped into "Asia", and get releases months after the US and Europe, if at all for many games. It's actually a consumer-friendly law.

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 04:03 PM

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/...rom-xbox-live/

That article at least mentions modded consoles to cheat.

It's definitely possible--if the console can play pirated games, hackers can then hack the game and make changes, unlock things without earning them, load altered save files etc etc.

charleski · 11-12-2009, 04:06 PM

I think the OP was really referring to events such as this. The whole issue of modded consoles is a murky business.

DawnFalcon · 11-12-2009, 04:06 PM

Erm. Unlocking achievements using saves and altering save files most certainly dosn't need any form of console modding.

It's the usual uninformed article, that's all.

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 04:08 PM

Fair enough. I just loathe pirates and cheaters and hackers, so I'll never lose sleep over stuff like this.

But something, use it as intended, or don't buy it IMO. Stick with PCs and PC gamings if you want to be able to mod and customize stuff. Consoles are for those of us that don't want to screw with that stuff and just want to put in a game and play.

DawnFalcon · 11-12-2009, 04:10 PM

You don't lose sleep by the fact they're catching a pretty high percentage of legitimate users with this? kay... and all that they're doing with the ban is absolutely ensuring that those customers, in general, will never play a legit game again on that console.

A "you're naughty, reverse the hack and you can come back"? Well, they might buy legit games for it again.

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 04:11 PM

They can play any game they want, just not online as the Xbox live user contract clearly states that modded consoles can be banned from the service.

Again, if people don't like the product because of region locks and what have you, don't buy it. The PS3 is out there without such problems for those people.

If you buy a product and hack it/mod it when there are clear implications stated for doing so, you have to be willing to live with the consequences. You have to decide if it's worth voiding the warranty and possibly being banned by from Live.

DawnFalcon · 11-12-2009, 04:14 PM

Yes, and I'm arguing it's badly counter-productive, because it actually increases unauthorised copying. (There are other ways to do it, like blocking access to modded consoles while detecting them as modded, and stripping game achievements and gamerscore for those games, which would achieve the same result and keep future revenue possibilities open!)

And there are these little things like consumer rights to consider, which Australia has when it's explicitly authorised modding because of region locking. You can't handwave them away.

I'm very much in the "pragmatist" school of thought when it comes to unauthorised copying. I bitterly oppose measures which would drive us into the same corner as the music industry, despite some people's best efforts...the games industry is poorly enough regarded enough as it is!

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 04:24 PM

I can see that. It's just not something that affects me as I just buy a console, play games, beat them and trade them on Goozex and have never cared about modding, and fortunately don't live in Australia or other places with game banning, poor selection, etc. that necessitates importing.

And I did say they need a better way to detected modded consoles than what they have now. I fully support banning consoles from live that have been modded to accept pirated discs--but yes, they need to find a way to inconvenience less of the legitimate users.

But really, there are no legitimate mods--products are sold and meant to be used as is--with the exception of customizable things like PCs. They just need to get rid of the stupid region locks so that there is no reasonable need to mod a console.

DawnFalcon · 11-12-2009, 04:28 PM

As far as I'm concerned, making sure people can exercise their rights is just as important as making sure that they can't go beyond them*. While it might not matter to you, it does matter to a lot of people.

*And I argue that major changes are needed there as well, such as a proper returns system (which removes your achievement/gamescore next time you're online), which would cut much of the second hand market off at the knees. But noo, can't return software... (*thud*)

Shaggy · 11-12-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

But really, there are no legitimate mods--products are sold and meant to be used as is

Wow. That's a pretty far reaching blanket statement. Are you sure you really understand the implications of that position?

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 04:30 PM

I'm just not big on consumer rights on that front I guess.

As long as companies are up front about what you can and can't do with their product, and what the penalties are for breaking that agreement, so people know what the consequences are I have no problems with limiting usages of products.

Again, just don't buy them if you don't like how they work. I always avoided iPods and buying from iTunes for such reasons--now moot that it's DRM free. I just don't get the point of buying and hacking stuff--I just avoid leisure products that don't do what I want or have DRM I can't live with.

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Wow. That's a pretty far reaching blanket statement. Are you sure you really understand the implications of that position?

I am. We're talking about optional, leisure products. If a cell phone doesn't do what you want, don't buy it. Don't like a DRM scheme on some type of electronic media? Don't buy from that source. These are all things we can live without, and if people don't buy them things will change just like even iTunes is finally DRM free after Amazon and other major stores forced their hand.

Buy the the product, and you just voted with your wallet that your ok with the DRM or other restrictions that bother you. Don't buy it and wait and buy something that's less restrictive and you send the message that those are the type of products you want.

Don't go break copyright laws to get around it and then try to justify it.

11-12-2009, 04:11 PM	#39
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	They can play any game they want, just not online as the Xbox live user contract clearly states that modded consoles can be banned from the service. Again, if people don't like the product because of region locks and what have you, don't buy it. The PS3 is out there without such problems for those people. If you buy a product and hack it/mod it when there are clear implications stated for doing so, you have to be willing to live with the consequences. You have to decide if it's worth voiding the warranty and possibly being banned by from Live. Last edited by dmaul1114; 11-12-2009 at 04:14 PM.

11-12-2009, 04:14 PM	#40
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Yes, and I'm arguing it's badly counter-productive, because it actually increases unauthorised copying. (There are other ways to do it, like blocking access to modded consoles while detecting them as modded, and stripping game achievements and gamerscore for those games, which would achieve the same result and keep future revenue possibilities open!) And there are these little things like consumer rights to consider, which Australia has when it's explicitly authorised modding because of region locking. You can't handwave them away. I'm very much in the "pragmatist" school of thought when it comes to unauthorised copying. I bitterly oppose measures which would drive us into the same corner as the music industry, despite some people's best efforts...the games industry is poorly enough regarded enough as it is! Last edited by DawnFalcon; 11-12-2009 at 04:20 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Seriously thoughtful Video streaming to XBox 360 - what formats are supported?	HarryT	Lounge	13	12-12-2009 03:27 AM
Preparing for the Xbox 360's release	Evan	Lounge	8	11-06-2005 05:08 PM

11-12-2009, 04:01 PM	#33
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	The hacking thing? It's an urban legend. No more. Altered controllers, and some people do alter them, don't need any form of modchip but offer a minimal advantage (if any). The controller rate limiting and so on is done on the Xbox itself. And no, I think you mistake why cracking region locking is legal in Australia. It's because they tend to be lumped into "Asia", and get releases months after the US and Europe, if at all for many games. It's actually a consumer-friendly law.

11-12-2009, 04:03 PM	#34
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/...rom-xbox-live/ That article at least mentions modded consoles to cheat. It's definitely possible--if the console can play pirated games, hackers can then hack the game and make changes, unlock things without earning them, load altered save files etc etc.

11-12-2009, 04:06 PM	#35
charleski Wizard Posts: 1,196 Karma: 1281258 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-505	I think the OP was really referring to events such as this. The whole issue of modded consoles is a murky business.

11-12-2009, 04:08 PM	#37
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	Fair enough. I just loathe pirates and cheaters and hackers, so I'll never lose sleep over stuff like this. But something, use it as intended, or don't buy it IMO. Stick with PCs and PC gamings if you want to be able to mod and customize stuff. Consoles are for those of us that don't want to screw with that stuff and just want to put in a game and play.

11-12-2009, 04:10 PM	#38
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	You don't lose sleep by the fact they're catching a pretty high percentage of legitimate users with this? kay... and all that they're doing with the ban is absolutely ensuring that those customers, in general, will never play a legit game again on that console. A "you're naughty, reverse the hack and you can come back"? Well, they might buy legit games for it again.

11-12-2009, 04:24 PM	#41
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	I can see that. It's just not something that affects me as I just buy a console, play games, beat them and trade them on Goozex and have never cared about modding, and fortunately don't live in Australia or other places with game banning, poor selection, etc. that necessitates importing. And I did say they need a better way to detected modded consoles than what they have now. I fully support banning consoles from live that have been modded to accept pirated discs--but yes, they need to find a way to inconvenience less of the legitimate users. But really, there are no legitimate mods--products are sold and meant to be used as is--with the exception of customizable things like PCs. They just need to get rid of the stupid region locks so that there is no reasonable need to mod a console.

11-12-2009, 04:28 PM	#42
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	As far as I'm concerned, making sure people can exercise their rights is just as important as making sure that they can't go beyond them. While it might not matter to you, it does matter to a lot of people. And I argue that major changes are needed there as well, such as a proper returns system (which removes your achievement/gamescore next time you're online), which would cut much of the second hand market off at the knees. But noo, can't return software... (thud)

11-12-2009, 04:30 PM	#44
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	I'm just not big on consumer rights on that front I guess. As long as companies are up front about what you can and can't do with their product, and what the penalties are for breaking that agreement, so people know what the consequences are I have no problems with limiting usages of products. Again, just don't buy them if you don't like how they work. I always avoided iPods and buying from iTunes for such reasons--now moot that it's DRM free. I just don't get the point of buying and hacking stuff--I just avoid leisure products that don't do what I want or have DRM I can't live with.

Advert

Advert