Google plans 'buy anywhere, read anywhere' offer

[=X=]

Originally Posted by khalleron

No, it isn't, at least not in the US, except for farm products where the price is mandated by law (such as milk), also known as farm price supports.

If you want to buy something and sell it for less than you paid for it, no one will sue you except the American Dairy Assocation.

Sure it is, it's an Antitrust law under "Predatory Pricing"


It's just hard to prove so you don't see many law suits over this.

=X=

[Kali Yuga]

I concur that the caching issue is a bit unclear. However it is my assumption that since they will support multiple browsers, on those devices it will just use the browser's existing cache. Otherwise they would need plugins for every browser that allows access to some other part of the hard drive, and that could create a security risk for the end-user.

I doubt any currently existing ebook readers support this technology right now; after all few are Internet-enabled to begin with. I suspect it will not be particularly easy to implement, so that part will probably take awhile.

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Right, and I see no reason why you couldn't have multiple ebooks cached locally.

Heck, the reader may not even have internet access so you need to load it from "the cloud" to your PC then to your reader. Actually, this is pretty similar to what happens now... your ebooks are available on "the cloud" (say fictionwise). When you want to read it you cache it (d/l to your PC) locally. If you want it on your reader you transfer it from the PC's cache to your reader.

The only main difference here I think would be that Google is going to give you a "reader" that you can load anywhere. Think web app similar to having Google Mail with Google Gears (off line mode) enabled.

BOb

Fair enough. I hope you have the right version of it, Bob. My understanding of the article is similar to yours.
I don't trust "cloud" computing either though - even though every book I've bought is available for redownload from the retailer (mainly Books on Board), I still have multiple copies stashed on different media (and some offsite, too) in case of hard drive failure, or heaven forbid, something happening like a house fire. I am not about to take chances with my books. If Books on Board folds next year - without those backups and if something happened I'd be out both my books AND a sizable investment. Not happening.
To be fair though - using "the cloud" to access things when out and about would be handy.

[Daithi]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

This has already been answered several times. The downloaded book is cached on your device so you can read it without an Internet connection.

Dale

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Right, and I see no reason why you couldn't have multiple ebooks cached locally.

Heck, the reader may not even have internet access so you need to load it from "the cloud" to your PC then to your reader. Actually, this is pretty similar to what happens now... your ebooks are available on "the cloud" (say fictionwise). When you want to read it you cache it (d/l to your PC) locally. If you want it on your reader you transfer it from the PC's cache to your reader.

The only main difference here I think would be that Google is going to give you a "reader" that you can load anywhere. Think web app similar to having Google Mail with Google Gears (off line mode) enabled.

BOb

Where did you guys see that this is how the Google system will work? I'm afraid I must have missed it. I looked when this was first announced , but I didn't see where Google described how their caching would work. Have they actually said that if you purchase a book that the entire book would be stored on your ereader? Have they said how long it will be stored? Have they said how many books they will store on the ereader? All I've been able to find is that they will use some type of caching so that you can read offline, but with no details.

If in fact you could load hundreds titles on your Google ereader and have them in long-term "cache" then this would be pretty cool. Essentially it would be no different than having your ebook files on one of today's ereaders. I would really like to read the details on Google's caching system. If either of you could provide links to these details I'd really appreciate it.

[llreader]

Originally Posted by Daithi

Where did you guys see that this is how the Google system will work?

Well, my assumption is based on the fact that that is the way it works right now. Go to books.google.com and try it.

I am not sure about all the ins and outs of DRM, and I don't have a reader yet, so I may be making some incorrect assumptions, but ePub seems to have some standard ways of working (for example, you can take books out of a public library) that don't require tight integration between the reader and the book provider.

Does that sound plausible to you? Google does provide books in ePub format now, so if you want to think concretely about how a DRM scheme like this would work, I would start there.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by =X=

Sure it is, it's an Antitrust law under "Predatory Pricing"


It's just hard to prove so you don't see many law suits over this.

=X=

From the Wikipedia article you linked to:

"However, because the antitrust laws are ultimately intended to benefit consumers, and discounting results in at least short-term net benefit to consumers, the U.S. Supreme Court has set high hurdles to antitrust claims based on a predatory pricing theory. The Court requires plaintiffs to show a likelihood that the pricing practices will affect not only rivals but also competition in the market as a whole, in order to establish that there is a substantial probability of success of the attempt to monopolize. If there is a likelihood that market entrants will prevent the predator from recouping its investment through supra competitive pricing, then there is no probability of success and the antitrust claim would fail. In addition, the Court established that for prices to be predatory, they must be below the seller's cost."


So there's a lot more to it than just selling below cost - using something as a loss leader is perfectly legal and widely practiced.

[Daithi]

Originally Posted by llreader

Well, my assumption is based on the fact that that is the way it works right now. Go to books.google.com and try it.

I am not sure about all the ins and outs of DRM, and I don't have a reader yet, so I may be making some incorrect assumptions, but ePub seems to have some standard ways of working (for example, you can take books out of a public library) that don't require tight integration between the reader and the book provider.

Does that sound plausible to you? Google does provide books in ePub format now, so if you want to think concretely about how a DRM scheme like this would work, I would start there.

Thanks llreader, but Google hasn't started providing this service yet. They currently have books at books.google, but this is not the same service they are planning to introduce in the future. With their current service you can download entire books in PDF and/or ePub formats if the book is in the public domain. For books not in the public domain, they normally only let you view portions of essentially a PDF view of the book, and no caching of content is involved in this process (unless you count browser cache).

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Daithi

Where did you guys see that this is how the Google system will work? I'm afraid I must have missed it. I looked when this was first announced , but I didn't see where Google described how their caching would work. Have they actually said that if you purchase a book that the entire book would be stored on your ereader? Have they said how long it will be stored? Have they said how many books they will store on the ereader? All I've been able to find is that they will use some type of caching so that you can read offline, but with no details.

If in fact you could load hundreds titles on your Google ereader and have them in long-term "cache" then this would be pretty cool. Essentially it would be no different than having your ebook files on one of today's ereaders. I would really like to read the details on Google's caching system. If either of you could provide links to these details I'd really appreciate it.

The article this thread is based on is in the first entry the third paragraph of the article states:

Once a book has been accessed on a given device, a cached version will exist, making it possible for readers to access the book offline. "There's a really complex set of offerings out there for the consumer. Our concept is that it should be open: they shouldn't have to pick the device, software or retailer," said Edmonds.

Dale

[llreader]

Originally Posted by Daithi

Thanks llreader, but Google hasn't started providing this service yet. They currently have books at books.google, but this is not the same service they are planning to introduce in the future. With their current service you can download entire books in PDF and/or ePub formats if the book is in the public domain. For books not in the public domain, they normally only let you view portions of essentially a PDF view of the book, and no caching of content is involved in this process (unless you count browser cache).

Ok, well, I think we both know what we would like to see. We will have to wait until they show us what they have come up with. If it is not as good as we would like, we still haven't lost any of the options we have now.

[Arapito]

"buy anywhere, read anywhere"

I got quite excited when I read this phrase thinking that it heralded an end to geographical restrictions.

But re-reading the original article I don't actually see anything that indicates this will be the case. I suspect it will be more of "buy anywhere, read anywhere any books where the geographical rights we hold match the country of your credit card". At least we know it doesn't mean "buy anywhere, read anywhere in the US only" as the UK and Europe are specifically mentioned.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Daithi

Where did you guys see that this is how the Google system will work? I'm afraid I must have missed it.

Of course the information was not that detailed, so for me it is speculation. But, I prefer to see the glass as half full than half empty.

BOb

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

I don't trust "cloud" computing either though - even though every book I've bought is available for redownload from the retailer (mainly Books on Board), I still have multiple copies stashed on different media (and some offsite, too) in case of hard drive failure, or heaven forbid, something happening like a house fire.

You don't have to trust it to make use of it. I've used Turbo Tax online for the last 10 years or so. Every one of my returns is accessible by logging into my Turbo Tax account. Of course, I have all the PDFs stored and backed up locally myself also.

My gmail is not locally anywhere though. It would be a bummer if I lost all that email but not life ending. I actually trust google to keep it safe more than a $150 hard drive in my PC actually.

BOb

[Daithi]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Of course the information was not that detailed, so for me it is speculation. But, I prefer to see the glass as half full than half empty.

BOb

Thanks Bob,

The way Dale made it sound was as if this was old territory that had been covered before, so I thought maybe I was missing something. I truly hope Google comes up with something that can compete with Amazon, but yes, I do have reservations about not having access to my files when I'm not online. I guess we'll have wait and see what they come up with. Actually, I'm looking forward to getting full access to some of "Google's" books that aren't in the public domain but are out of print.

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

You don't have to trust it to make use of it. I've used Turbo Tax online for the last 10 years or so. Every one of my returns is accessible by logging into my Turbo Tax account. Of course, I have all the PDFs stored and backed up locally myself also.

My gmail is not locally anywhere though. It would be a bummer if I lost all that email but not life ending. I actually trust google to keep it safe more than a $150 hard drive in my PC actually.

BOb

I have my Gmail running through my email client with pop3 access. So I have it both ways - redundant, yes; and I don't get a lot of email that it would kill me to lose, except school notices. So I guess I'm a bit paranoid.
When it comes to my books, though, I'm REALLY paranoid. I have them on the hard drive, I have them on my SD card in the reader, I have them backed up to DVD and stored at a friend's house. Comes from having to leave an extensive physical book collection in Texas when I moved to Illinois due to lack of money for shipping. Some of those I'll never be able to replace in any format at all - they're out of print. (Unless Google comes through and I'm not holding my breath for that...)

[emellaich]

In regard to caching, storing locally, and more.

Google hasn't been shy about introducing purpose built solutions, but their trend over time has been to migrate them to integrated platforms. You can see the ongoing convergence of google voice, picasa, google apps, google sites, gmail, and more. They are beginning to share contact lists, storage locations and capabilities.

Clearly, there long term vision is in the cloud, thus, the creation of a new operating system that is derived from the Google Chrome browser. However, they recognize that there will be times when the cloud is inaccessible (should we call it a blue sky since its a cloudless day?). People won't want to use their service if it doesn't include both an online and offline capability.

To this end, they have a concept called google gears that would allow you to pull down (download???) both applications and data. Specifically, the idea is that you could download a word processing application and a set of documents from the cloud. Then take off on a plane trip where you don't have access to the cloud. You will be able to edit existing (downloaded) documents and create brand new documents. When you reconnect your work will be automatically re-synched to the net.

I don't see any reason why their vision wouldn't support multiple downloaded 'books'.

Michael