Brooklyn Library restricts access to Tin Tin book

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Often true, particularly where Caucasians are a majority. But it is often true where other races are the majority, and at times there is less of an attempt to accommodate other.

But this is not limited to race. It applies to nationality, and to religion, and to sexuality, and to social class, and to education....

Times change, as noted before. Increased mobility gives raise to increased political egalitarianism, which gives raise to increased meritocracy.
Once out of the village, we are all mutts. Which is actually a good thing, from an evolutionary standpoint :-) But much more importantly, it's good to remember, that we are individuals.

I believe, that generally, we are in agreement.

Agreed. Having spent part of my life part of a majority culture, and more of it as part of an all but unrepresented and little known minority culture... and also having been both fairly rich and dirt-poor, you are right that this is by no means just a racial thing.

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

No, I don't think so. Partly because there are more than enough other (real life) examples around, but also because there is more to learning than books and comics. If a kid would never be allowed to be around kids from other ethnic groups, probably yes. But then we're talking about a parents influence again (you are not allowed to play with that kid because he's black/red/yellow/white/blue/purple/green/tall/small/medium sized/etc)

Do you think your African friend would equally (have) enjoy(ed) Tin Tin and Asterix, et al, despite the crude and sometimes less than subtle racial stereotyping of the precious few people in the books that bear any resemblance to him?

Also, in many countries, in many European countries even, meaningful mixing with ethnic minority groups is far less frequent than exposure to racially ignorant classical literature.

- Ahi

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by Phogg

As it happens, I have no problem with it.

I teach my children that human beings are not dogs.
There is zero value in some claimed genetic pedigree.

I point out that ony 3 out of every 10 North Americans is a genetically pure anything at all.
And that it doesnt matter.

Humans have always presented derogative views of groups they disliked, even when they had to contrive the alledged connections to start with.

People are just as likely to do this over skin color, economic status, language, education, religion, or sexuality as they are over melanine content.

Why would I tech my children anything else?

It isn't a kind world, and I wish for them to be best able to cope with the world that is really there. Not helplessy waiting for someone else to make it all better.

Well, I'm fairly certain that I'm 100% human. Although Great Granddad Fish was a bit suspect...

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

Well, I'm fairly certain that I'm 100% human. Although Great Granddad Fish was a bit suspect...

Well how about that ape in your family tree? Hi great great great great great (...) granddad

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ahi

Do you think your African friend would equally (have) enjoy(ed) Tin Tin and Asterix, et al, despite the crude and sometimes less than subtle racial stereotyping of the precious few people in the books that bear any resemblance to him?

Also, in many countries, in many European countries even, meaningful mixing with ethnic minority groups is far less frequent than exposure to racially ignorant classical literature.

- Ahi

Are you saying that you are in favour of books written in less "enlightened times" being removed from all libraries, ahi?

[ahi]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Are you saying that you are in favour of books written in less "enlightened times" being removed from all libraries, ahi?

I didn't think I was:

Originally Posted by ahi

Let us certainly dismiss the idea of censoring books in the smallest ways as dubious or downright wrong.

Are "removing classics from libraries" or "pretending blatant racism generally experienced as benign by the majority culture can cause no harm" the only two options?

If so, I'll have to abstain.

- Ahi

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ahi

Are "removing classics from libraries" or "pretending blatant racism generally experienced as benign by the majority culture can cause no harm" the only two options?

On the one hand, you seem to be saying that you don't favour the removal of books from libraries, and on the other hand you say that you consider such books can be harmful. What would you propose?

[Kostas]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

When I read those comics, I didn't even know racism existed. One of my best friends at elementary school was a Moroccan. Who cared where his parents came from (they came here in the '70's when there was a boom and there was a huge shortage of cheap labor)? Not me.

When I read those Tin Tin comics, I never even put the link from Herge's. Africans to real Africans. It was a comic and in comics nothing is real.

Children don't judge, parents do, and children will copy their parents. Just because parents decide that a book isn't for children, will children think there's something more happening inside that book. Parents should let their children read it and then point to the fact that that is how people thought about those population groups so many years ago and that the reality is completely different. Point them real life people from that ethnic group to show the difference.

I totally agree with all you say!
But when I read Tintin, my parents did not warn me on anything because they didn't know.
Though I doubt that anyone could become a racist just reading Tintin...

[Kostas]

Originally Posted by ahi

Do you think your African friend would equally (have) enjoy(ed) Tin Tin and Asterix,...

Why do you mention Asterix? Is there a controversy about Asterix too?

[ahi]

Originally Posted by HarryT

On the one hand, you seem to be saying that you don't favour the removal of books from libraries, and on the other hand you say that you consider such books can be harmful. What would you propose?

I propose people, particularly those enjoying the many subtle benefits of being part of the majority culture, reflect a bit more deeply on the matter. (Not on the matter of "Should older books be censored/banned?", but on the matter of flagrant racism in older books, and what it means, and what it can do.)

A solution though, I do not have. Just opinions. And unpleasant feelings that some of my favourite childhood books will never produce similarly positive impact on my own children for reasons that are tangential to the literary works, but are of troubling significance all the same.

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Kostas

Why do you mention Asterix? Is there a controversy about Asterix too?

Spot the Black Gent:

http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpap...asterix_13.jpg

(Hint: Toward the top on the left edge.)

Also, taking stock, it seems in the world of Asterix minority women are sexy, while minority men are mostly (albeit not always) evil/shady.

- Ahi

[Kostas]

Originally Posted by ahi

Spot the Black Gent:

http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpap...asterix_13.jpg

(Hint: Toward the top on the left edge.)

Also, taking stock, it seems in the world of Asterix minority women are sexy, while minority men are mostly (albeit not always) evil/shady.

- Ahi

OK, I see your POV. Thanks!

[acidzebra]

Originally Posted by ahi

Spot the Black Gent:

http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpap...asterix_13.jpg

So, wait, the stereotypical depiction of that "black gent" is out of bounds, but the stereotypical depiction of those Belgian dudes is fine, not to mention the Romans, the Goths, and so on?

What is your working definition of "racism"?

[ahi]

Originally Posted by acidzebra

So, wait, the stereotypical depiction of that "black gent" is out of bounds, but the stereotypical depiction of those Belgian dudes is fine, not to mention the Romans, the Goths, and so on?

What is your working definition of "racism"?

So, wait, in what way do you see blackface depiction of black people as not racist?

And I never suggested for a moment that Belgian or Dutch children couldn't be traumatized by Asterix. Though--to be clear--I am not hereby suggesting they are likely to be... I'm willing to leave the door open to it though.

- Ahi

[Riocaz]

Originally Posted by ahi

So, wait, in what way do you see blackface depiction of black people as not racist?

And I never suggested for a moment that Belgian or Dutch children couldn't be traumatized by Asterix. Though--to be clear--I am not hereby suggesting they are likely to be... I'm willing to leave the door open to it though.

- Ahi

You seem to have missed the point being made. At least the interpretation I took Acid Zebra's comment...

How is the blackface depiction any different to every other stereotypical depiction of every other nationality and race shown in Asterix?

Is it racist? probably, though it was also probably not meant to be. Is it any worse than any other of the stereotypical depictions? No sorry I can't see that it is.

And for the record, I don't have kids, but if I did I would buy them both TinTin and Asterix. I happily gave my nephews a full set of asterix books a couple of years ago. With the parents permission.