DRM for Public Domain works at B&N

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Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

In all this hullagulla about DRM, has any body actually bothered to load up some of the Google Book pdbs into Calibre and actually check if they are DRM infected?

I did and you are correct but they are not talking about Google books they're talking about the five free "B&N Classics" that are given when creating an account ( Dracula, Little Women, Pride & Prejudice). Those books do have DRM.

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[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

EDIT: and if you can make a rational case for DRM of any kind, then I'm all ears, because you'll be the first in history to actually make that argument work

Can you get free electronic library ebook services with *current* content without DRM of one kind or another? On the music side, the "all-you-can-eat" services wouldn't exist without DRM.

DRM is a technology.
Neither good nor bad.
There are good uses for DRM and bad uses for DRM; which is which is in the eye of the beholder and their specific prejudices.

You are, however, mostly right on the cultural thing.

But even there the transatlantic rift is misrepresented; on the euro side the argument is about money and power: "americans tolerate corporate abuses".

On this side of the pond we see it as a personal responsibility issue: "children need protecting, adults should be able to take care of themselves and their own".
You won't see many libertarians in France, I'm pretty sure.
Personal freedom over all, equality be damned. :-)

Notice the american revolution was about freedom, the french about equality.

No need to get excited about either approach. When the asteroid hits we'll all fry equally.

Basically, if B&N want to DRM PD texts the law says they can and if they want to be money grubbing whores they can. Not against the laws of nature or physics to make a buck...
Me?
Nobody forces me to buy from them so I literally couldn't care less what they do or don't do; its their business, they can run it into the ground on their own. Either there are enough fools to keep them in business or there aren't.
Odds are there aren't and they'll serve as an object lesson for the market.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

*cough* confirmation bias *cough*

• Buyers of content do not receive unlimited rights to reproduce and distribute content, unless the creator / publisher / rights holder consciously grants that option.
• DRM, while not 100% effective, works well enough in several instances to keep most users honest. This allows the content creators / publishers / rights holders to receive payment for their work.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Oh yeah, I forgot to reiterate none of their actions are removing any books from the public domain, and as such are completely acceptable.

It is 100% acceptable to use content that is in public domain for commercial purposes. You want to make a movie? Write an opera? Charge $15 admission for the movie you made, or $750 for admission to said opera? Totally legit. Yes, that absolutely includes modifying the content and adding DRM, if you so choose.

"Public domain" is a set of laws regulating content, and that's about it. Any sort of "cultural conscience" is of your own invention and, as such, is (to put it mildly) non-binding.

I love it, all your reactions to culture are business like, you talk of 'non-binding' and 'charges' and 'commercial purposes'. This is our culture, it shouldn't be locked up by companies for no good reason. It shouldn't be artificially restricted, whether there are a million other vendors or locations where you can access the same culture or not. You defend DRM as though it actually works, as though it has ever worked, as though there is any evidence at all out there that supports its use. DRM has never worked, it doesn't keep people 'honest', which is as ludicrous as any statement I've ever heard in any of these debates. It keeps the 'honest' away from their own content. It does nothing to stop those who would take the content without payment. Never has done what it promised, never will do. That was true in the days of the Spectrum 48k and tape-to-tape, it's true now with any file that has DRM applied.

The only people DRM works for are the technology unsavvy, who have no clue what it is, or how it works, but are willing to accept anything for the semblance of security (here's a rock, it keeps away tigers). As a much more intelligent programmer friend of mine put it "DRM is for the cryptographically sub-normal".

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by dadioflex

Absolutely inspired. I am loving your shift towards surreal comedy. If I was writing a list of abuses of power my hand would be cramped beyond use a long time before I got to the public domain.

There's lots more important things like the British and American governments abuse of human rights through the use of torture, or their failing and devastating 'endless' wars, or the struggle of the workers in Chile, or the plight of lesbian women in South Africa who are being "cured" of their sexuality by gang rape, or the mass killings in Angola and other African nations...

But this is a forum about books and the technology surrounding them. In this context the Public Domain is very important. Amnesty International have a forum for all those other things. I suggest, once you stop laughing from my 'surreal' comedy, you join up. I know I did and it was one of the best moves I ever made.

[Musicman]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

There's lots more important things like the British and American governments abuse of human rights through the use of torture, or their failing and devastating 'endless' wars, or the struggle of the workers in Chile, or the plight of lesbian women in South Africa who are being "cured" of their sexuality by gang rape, or the mass killings in Angola and other African nations...

But this is a forum about books and the technology surrounding them. In this context the Public Domain is very important. Amnesty International have a forum for all those other things. I suggest, once you stop laughing from my 'surreal' comedy, you join up. I know I did and it was one of the best moves I ever made.

As you say, this is a forum regarding books and technology not Politics.

However, how dare you bash the British and the US Government and label them with human rights abuses. Where is your outrage against Islamic fundamentalist who behead prisoners, abuse women and commit terrorist acts against humanity!

If it weren't for the British and the United States of America everyone would be goose stepping under a Nazi flag.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Musicman

As you say, this is a forum regarding books and technology not Politics.

However, how dare you bash the British and the US Government and label them with human rights abuses. Where your outrage against Islamic fundamentalist who behead prisoners, abuse women and commit terrorist acts against humanity!

If it weren't for the British and the United States of America everyone would be goose stepping under a Nazi flag.

Oh, I'm as equally outraged with Islamic Fundamentalists, don't get me wrong. Any 'religion' or 'government' that treats women with such sickening disrespect makes me angry. If I actually made a fulll list of all the atrocities done under the name of both Islam and Christianity we'd be here indefinitely.

I'm not sure how the Second World War relates to all this, except for the invocation of Godwin's law. And you left a great deal of people out of your equation when it came to victory in WWII: The Polish, the French, the Germans, the Austrians, the Swedish, the Dutch, the Finnish, the Icelandic, the Spanish, the Italian, the Indian, the Morroccan...it wasn't just America and the UK involved in that war, you know.

[rogue_ronin]

Originally Posted by Musicman

As you say, this is a forum regarding books and technology not Politics.

However, how dare you bash the British and the US Government and label them with human rights abuses. Where is your outrage against Islamic fundamentalist who behead prisoners, abuse women and commit terrorist acts against humanity!

If it weren't for the British and the United States of America everyone would be goose stepping under a Nazi flag.

Is there a way to take away karma?

m a r

[Lo Zeno]

If DRM were actually DRM (Digital Rights Management), it would simply be a way to protect intellectual property. But it is not, and has never been in the past either.
Every implementation of DRM actually is a DIC (Digital Information Control): it is Apple forbidding you to copy your mp3s from your iPod to your new computer, it is Amazon deleting your books from your Kindle, it is anyone else blocking you from accessing your paid-for digital content from the new PC you bought to substitute the old one that zapped last month.

DRM as a principle? Has its reasons to exist, and under Common Law (and also under Civil Law, even if with less rights or less enforced rights) it is acceptable and "right".
DRM as technology, instead, is a failure, because under the misguiding name of "DRM" what we've been given is just DIC.

By the way, I'm european

EDIT: Before being misunderstood, I have to make clear one thing: by "Common Law" I mean the legislation derived from Great Britain's own legislation, including Great Britain itself, USA, and all countries that once were part of the Commonwealth; by "Civil Law" I mean the most widespread legislation in Europe, which derives from the ancient Roman Law.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Lo Zeno

If DRM were actually DRM (Digital Rights Management), it would simply be a way to protect intellectual property. But it is not, and has never been in the past either.
Every implementation of DRM actually is a DIC (Digital Information Control): it is Apple forbidding you to copy your mp3s from your iPod to your new computer, it is Amazon deleting your books from your Kindle, it is anyone else blocking you from accessing your paid-for digital content from the new PC you bought to substitute the old one that zapped last month.

DRM as a principle? Has its reasons to exist, and under Common Law (and also under Civil Law, even if with less rights or less enforced rights) it is acceptable and "right".
DRM as technology, instead, is a failure, because under the misguiding name of "DRM" what we've been given is just DIC.

By the way, I'm european

EDIT: Before being misunderstood, I have to make clear one thing: by "Common Law" I mean the legislation derived from Great Britain's own legislation, including Great Britain itself, USA, and all countries that once were part of the Commonwealth; by "Civil Law" I mean the most widespread legislation in Europe, which derives from the ancient Roman Law.

You've put it much better than I did. And from now on I will use the acronym DIC whenever talking about DRM schemes. As in "has it been DIC'ed with?"

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Everyone has the basic right to do stupid things - and the rest of us have the basic right to laugh at them.

Worth repeating.

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by Musicman

As you say, this is a forum regarding books and technology not Politics.

However, how dare you bash the British and the US Government and label them with human rights abuses. Where is your outrage against Islamic fundamentalist who behead prisoners, abuse women and commit terrorist acts against humanity!

If it weren't for the British and the United States of America everyone would be goose stepping under a Nazi flag.

If a government commits human rights abuses, it certainly should be criticized for them, especially when that government self-righteously appoints itself the torch bearer of human freedom and democracy. What you've said is analagous to shouting down someone who documents police corruption by asking them why they aren't criticizing criminals. Because they are criminals, duh. That judgement alone is sufficient criticism.

How does detaining people indefinately without trial score one against terrorists (I presume you don't mean all Muslims who are strictly observant of their religion)?

Your analysis of WWII is extremely flawed as well. It was the Soviet Union which bore the brunt of the Nazi War Machine, beat it back, and reduced Hitler to a rat in a hole. The US and Britain spen much of the war fighting with the Germans over coloines neither side had a right to possess and bombing civilian targets such as Dresden, Hamburg, and Tokyo in an effort to terrorize the Axis into capitulating.

[Requiem]

So my question, is if B&N had printed these works you wuld expect them to give it away for free? Eventhough there is more costs to making a Published work, that does not mean there is no cost in editing, formatting and distributing a PD item. The DRM is currently the best way that the company can secure THEIR work on the public domain. The words may be free but no one works without getting paid. And those books you speak about were formatted and distibuted by someone.

The issue of DRM is not about the actual technology but rather how the companies that use it are implementing it. There is bad DRM (Apple, Kindle, etc.) and others that have very good policies about it. Here is a freedom of choice, as you can choose not to purchase anything from a company that goes against your views. It is easy to just move on to another company that does not have the issues that you are stressing. (BTW there has been DRM on PD books on the Sony Store since the beginning and all they did was add a bland cover)

I don't like the current implementation of DRM either, but I do understand the business side of things. Take for example a book that costs $2 to format and distribute, the company slaps DRM on it, effectively preventing 80% of people from redistributing it in their form, (20% illegally distributing) Say they sell 200,000 copies. Of those 200,000 only 160,000 actually cost 2$ and the other 40K cost an exponentially higher rate due to piracy. Maybe those 40,000 got distributed just 10 times each. That means that the company lost $800,000 they could have made off of THEIR work to format and edit the document. Now without DRM say that rate would be much higher, say now they only prevented 50% of people from pirating THEIR part of the work. You are now looking at the loss of millions of dollars. Companies put on DRM even if it only keeps 10% of the people from pirating, because that is what meets their bottom line and keeps the workers gainfully employed.

We want our public domain works protected, they want their jobs protected. Would you rather that they lock up the copyright in such schemes as have been previously mentioned (Trademarking names, etc) Or would you rather they make their money and distribute books at the lowest possible cost rather than having to pay licensing fees?

Google is also born of capitalism but they are distributing some of the greatest works ever written with no direct benefit to their bottom line, they are not the goodwill and you shouldn't forget they are still getting money from the advertising on their sites and that is what secures the books for everyone, the money of the companies like B&N who are charging money to pay for advertising to give us the same books free.

Ahhhh I ramble, just find somewhere else to get it.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Musicman

As you say, this is a forum regarding books and technology not Politics.

However, how dare you bash the British and the US Government and label them with human rights abuses. Where is your outrage against Islamic fundamentalist who behead prisoners, abuse women and commit terrorist acts against humanity!

If it weren't for the British and the United States of America everyone would be goose stepping under a Nazi flag.

That's pretty dumb...

Well... not pretty, you understand. But certainly dumb.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I love it, all your reactions to culture are business like, you talk of 'non-binding' and 'charges' and 'commercial purposes'.

What I am doing is staying focused on the topic at hand, namely your apparently irrational position on the commercial aspects of distribution of works in the public domain. There's no reason to discuss aesthetic considerations or the epistemological aspects of a "shared culture," for example, as that is irrelevant to the point of contention.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

This is our culture, it shouldn't be locked up by companies for no good reason.

What you are consistently failing to recognize is that even with B&N and other e-book vendors putting DRM on public domain book, the books are not getting "locked up."

Public domain books are available from a variety of sources. Some charge, some don't. Some use DRM, some don't. Adding DRM and/or charging for a public domain book has zero effect on the other distributors. I.e. the free flow of information is not changed because B&N put DRM on its public domain books.

If B&N was taking actions to prevent others from distributing public domain books, THEN you would have a point that extends beyond opinion and/or personal preferences. They aren't, so you don't.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

DRM has never worked... it keeps the 'honest' away from their own content. It does nothing to stop those who would take the content without payment, etc etc.

*shrug* You didn't ask me to design an inhumanly flawless DRM system or provide an extended technical defense of existing DRM implementations. You asked me to present a rational case for using DRM, and you got it.

Now, you can make the case that "a non-DRM distribution system" is better or has certain advantages over a DRM system, but that's another discussion altogether. And it doesn't alter the fundamental question at hand -- namely that regardless of the effectiveness of DRM, B&N unquestionably has the rights to put DRM on their files if they so choose, and since that action does not in any way, shape or form block others from freely and openly distributing public domain books, there is no "cultural conscience" at work to prevent them from doing so.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by Requiem

So my question, is if B&N had printed these works you wuld expect them to give it away for free?

That is not the point of the OP, he is simply stating that B&N has put DRM on a PD book.

My comment to him and others is that the "B&N Classics" contain more than just the PD work and THAT is why there is DRM on the book.

I've looked at their Dracula book and do agree their book is far better than any PD book I've seen sorry MR but it's even better than the one here.

Here is the book expert in question

New introductions commissioned from today's top writers and scholars Biographies of the authors Chronologies of contemporary historical, biographical, and cultural events Footnotes and endnotes Selective discussions of imitations, parodies, poems, books, plays, paintings, operas, statuary, and films inspired by the work Comments by other famous authors Study questions to challenge the reader's viewpoints and expectations Bibliographies for further reading Indices & Glossaries, when appropriate. All editions are beautifully designed and are printed to superior specifications; some include illustrations of historical interest. Barnes & Noble Classics pulls together a constellation of influences—biographical, historical, and literary—to enrich each reader's understanding of these enduring works.

Originally Posted by Requiem

So my question, is if B&N had printed these works you wuld expect them to give it away for free? Eventhough there is more costs to making a Published work, that does not mean there is no cost in editing, formatting and distributing a PD item. The DRM is currently the best way that the company can secure THEIR work on the public domain. The words may be free but no one works without getting paid. And those books you speak about were formatted and distibuted by someone.

The statement in bold is quite an oxymoron.

On an aside DRM is not the best way, Apple, Amazon, Walmart have proven you can sell digital media without DRM (music). Why Amazon chose to DRM their books is beyond me.

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