over 100 books of my kindle library just vaporized

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So if you download your eBooks from Amazon and put them in a calibre library, are you going to go to Amazon every time you want to do anything with any of these books to see if they can still be downloaded?

When you go an eBook listing on Amazon, the link shows Buy Now. Buy, not rent.

I'm guessing they don't put their purchased books in calibre. Because it's illegal to remove the DRM and you always have to blindly follow any ridiculous law, you know.

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So if you download your eBooks from Amazon and put them in a calibre library...

When you go an eBook listing on Amazon, the link shows Buy Now. Buy, not rent.

If you remove the DRM protection, you are creating copies of copyrighted material. The license you have does not allow you to do that.

You buy a non-exclusive license, which the copyright holder can revoke in any minute. You can buy a bottle of beer, but it does not mean you'll keep it forever and can replace it if it expires. Copyrighted material cannot be bought via retail, using the word "buy" for obtaining non-exclusive license is just a figure of speech without legal consequences.

[John F]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

If you remove the DRM protection, you are creating copies of copyrighted material. The license you have does not allow you to do that.

You buy a non-exclusive license, which the copyright holder can revoke in any minute. You can buy a bottle of beer, but it does not mean you'll keep it forever and can replace it if it expires. Copyrighted material cannot be bought via retail, using the word "buy" for obtaining non-exclusive license is just a figure of speech without legal consequences.

What happens if Amazon violates the .license agreement?

[maddz]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Copyrighted material cannot be bought via retail, using the word "buy" for obtaining non-exclusive license is just a figure of speech without legal consequences.

I have just purchased 2 print editions. Are you saying they cannot be purchased from Amazon?

https://www.amazon.com/Country-House.../dp/0300276923 & https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Regency.../dp/0300282419

Both are in copyright, so how come they are available for sale on Amazon? You've just said you cannot buy copyrighted material via retail. I used to purchase a lot of print books via Amazon.

[Martinoptic]

Yes true. But that is a physical product.
I think @Sarmat89 was referring to the kindle terms of service which state "Kindle Content is licensed, not sold, to you by Amazon." And therefore you don't own it. Which I personally think is ridiculous.
This is different from the mp3 sales: "Unless otherwise specified, all sales are final and the risk of loss transfers to you upon sale. We do not accept returns of Purchased Music." So in this case I've bought it and it IS mine.

[Gormagon]

Originally Posted by Martinoptic

(...) referring to the kindle terms of service which state "Kindle Content is licensed, not sold, to you by Amazon."

I've never bought a digital copy of a book on Amazon but someone here mentioned that there's a buy button on Amazon not a "licence" button. Isn't that some kind of false advertising (even if it's mentioned in the TOS that it's only a licence) when you click on "buy" and only get a licence to read something if it pleases the company selling this license to you?

[el_vandragon]

Originally Posted by Gormagon

Isn't that some kind of false advertising (even if it's mentioned in the TOS that it's only a licence) when you click on "buy" and only get a licence to read something if it pleases the company selling this license to you?

The argument I've heard is you are "buying" a (revocable) license not the content itself. In California there is a law saying it has to be clear you are getting a license and for me the button still says "Buy now with 1-click" but underneath the button there is the text "By placing an order, you're purchasing a content license & agreeing to Kindle's Store Terms of Use." (emphasis from Amazon and the Terms of Use are hyperlinked).

I am not sure how it appears in other jurisdictions though.

[Gormagon]

Originally Posted by el_vandragon

"By placing an order, you're purchasing a content license & agreeing to Kindle's Store Terms of Use." (emphasis from Amazon and the Terms of Use are hyperlinked).

Thanks for the quote. That looks reasonable for me for what Amazon sells in the USA/California.

Now it would be interesting what Amazon in Austria said at the time flowoeB purchased his ebook files from Amazon. In the end it may culminate in some sort of not having read (or understood) the TOS (without any "unexpected" condition, which may invalidate a certain condition in parts of the EU).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

If you remove the DRM protection, you are creating copies of copyrighted material. The license you have does not allow you to do that.

You buy a non-exclusive license, which the copyright holder can revoke in any minute. You can buy a bottle of beer, but it does not mean you'll keep it forever and can replace it if it expires. Copyrighted material cannot be bought via retail, using the word "buy" for obtaining non-exclusive license is just a figure of speech without legal consequences.

Some publishers such as Tor sell their books without DRM and Amazon adds DRM. So you do have to remove the DRM from KFX in order to get DRM free Tor eBooks. Is it right to go against the publisher and add DRM?

When Tor first went DRM free, there were some issues at some online shops. DRM was still there. So Tor and the author of the first DRM Free Tor eBooks gave directions on how to remove the DRM. So Tor does allow you to remove the DRM as their eBooks should be without DRM. The only place DRM is allowed is the library.

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by maddz

Both are in copyright, so how come they are available for sale on Amazon?

You don't have to have a license to sell bunches of paper somebody had printed on.

[slm]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

You don't have to have a license to sell bunches of paper somebody had printed on.

This is the result of a special provision of US law. (It is also why US libraries can lend physical books without a license). That law does not apply to computer files.

[cgsmom]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Let's be honest: you didn't "backed them up", you pirated them. As soon as Amazon had stopped selling those, you lost the license, and had to destroy both downloaded files and backups.

That’s not necessarily true. They still sell those same books, just in another format. They could have very easily verified that I purchased them.

[JSWolf]

@Sarmat89 read post #30 in this thread and answer my question. I'd like to know your answer.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

If you remove the DRM protection, you are creating copies of copyrighted material. The license you have does not allow you to do that.

Which is why the majority of people here - including many of the ones who carry the banner of anti-piracy - do exactly that: remove the DRM. People have seen how Amazon (and others) abuse this so-called "buy a license" scheme. You buy a book, but can't read it later, because "Oops, you didn't really buy the book, you only bought a license to read the book, and now we have revoked that license, without refunding your money of course". That kind of B.S. does not sit well with customers, no matter what some long-winded click-through "terms of sale" fine print says. When you "buy" something, be that an item or some lawyer-speak to only be able to "use" that item, you expect that purchase to be permanent. Otherwise the transaction should be clearly called a "rental" or a "lease" or a "subscription". Not a "buy". People understand "rent/lease/subscribe" to mean "temporary access to". "Buy" implies permanence.

And when the seller tries to be sneaky with lawyer-speak and turn a "buy" from a permanent thing into a temporary thing, then customers are going to totally ignore that lawyer-speak and do what is fair, no matter what the terms of the lawyer-speak say they can and cannot do.

I fully expect some self-righteous fool to come back and ding me for my "unethical" thoughts about this. So I will say in advance, "Thanks for the notification, self-righteous fool, ... but I'll ignore your tongue lashing anyway". I'll continue doing what probably 99% of the people here do (except for the self-righteous fools, and maybe a few normal people who don't want to bother for other reasons), and remove the DRM from books that I buy. Regardless of what the lawyer-speak says. Since I buy books only for my personal consumption, that's perfectly fair and ethical IMHO. And I don't care if the self-righteous fools think differently.

[JSWolf]

@Sarmat89, what do you expect people to do who bought eBooks from Amazon in good faith and can no longer download them as KF8 when they bought them because Amazon has taken that away and their functioning Kindle is not allowed to download eBooks and does not read KFX? Do you expect people outlay at least $150 to be able to read what they bought?