Online petition over library ebook embargo

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

Because that is what public libraries do, they lend books. And I pay tax dollars to support my local library system.

No one is talking about freebies here.

Sorry, I don't agree with this answer. Your taxes pay for a LOT of things. It is not a direct "I pay taxes so every book I check out from the library is the same thing as if I bought it". It certainly is not.

It's more like "I'd rather get a book for 'free to me, subsidized by the tax payers whether or not they read books".

I see nothing "bad for society" at all in having a time window before libraries have access to new fiction books.

[Deskisamess]

Sorry, I don't agree with this answer. Your taxes pay for a LOT of things. It is not a direct "I pay taxes so every book I check out from the library is the same thing as if I bought it". It certainly is not.

You are very good at adding meaning and motive that isn't there. It makes real discussion impossible, because no matter how someone phrases an opinion, you can twist it into something that wasn't said.

[John F]

Originally Posted by issybird

Well, yeah. There's only ever one waitlist.

But in your scenario, I frankly don't see what difference it makes at all. If your library is only going to buy one copy, they're only going to buy one copy. How long they'd have to wait to buy a second is irrelevant.

For most libraries which try to match as best they can purchases to demand, the size of the waitlist will help determine how many additional copies they license once the eight week waiting period is done.

I honestly don't get your point, here.

My point is, you say "most libraries which try to match", and I would be curious as to how that compares to libraries in general.

For example, I would have categorized my libraries as one of your libraries, but now, for MacMillan ebooks, they are not.

You may very well be right, which is why I keep saying "for my library". My library is for a relatively small town (probably above median income).

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

You are very good at adding meaning and motive that isn't there. It makes real discussion impossible, because no matter how someone phrases an opinion, you can twist it into something that wasn't said.

I’ve raised the same point without the motives.

Your taxes equate to fractions of a cent per ebooks you borrow.

[Deskisamess]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

I’ve raised the same point without the motives.

Your taxes equate to fractions of a cent per ebooks you borrow.

Sure, that's correct. But I won't be shamed into buying books that I typically borrow from my library. I have borrowed books from the library since I was a child. I can easily read 4-6 books a week, in the lite fiction genre I like. Books I generally don't read again.

I can't afford to buy all of those books, and say that without guilt. If I was unable to borrow them, I'd wait for them to come up as a freebie, or those occasional $.99 sales.

I also use Kindle Unlimited, because many of those books are not available at the library. But I or anyone else shouldn't have to defend this. I think the publishers may be only harming themselves. They need to adapt or die, like all the other businesses have to do in this digital age.

I do admit to not spending a ton of time thinking about these issues. I'm busy, with life. And I squeeze out a couple of hours each day to escape a bit, in books. Some of which I buy, most of which I borrow.

[MGlitch]

Right but no one is saying you should be ashamed. Go up and read my full post which is just above leebases reply to yours.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by issybird

By "wait eight weeks" I meant "wait eight weeks" to get the borrowing/waitlist process really underway. No matter how many copies a library licenses, only the lucky few are going to be first in line for any book. So it's a case of waitlist v. waitlist + eight weeks for most patrons anyway.

And your second paragraph was the point I made, that expiring licenses are a much more serious drawback than having a lag before a library can purchase multiple copies. I don't mind waiting, I expect to; but it's frustrating when I look for a book and see that the library used to have it and no longer does, leaving me SOL.

I too find it really annoying when I see that a library has 0 copies on an eBook available. The problem is that I cannot then go and recommend it because they already have it. What I do is find where the online request form and use that to make my case to get another copy. It doesn't always work.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

You are very good at adding meaning and motive that isn't there. It makes real discussion impossible, because no matter how someone phrases an opinion, you can twist it into something that wasn't said.

Somebody says "just buy a book instead of getting it free at the library"

Another says "I pay taxes".

But that's very specious. There is no shame in using the library. I'd never say so. But it IS a LOT CLOSER to "I get books for free" than it is "I pay for books via my taxes". A LOT CLOSER TO FREE.

People who think that small portion of their tax bill that goes to buying books means "I'm really buying my books after all"....are deluded.

I use the library because...why not...it's a publicly funded service. That makes perfect sense. "I read publicly funded and subsidized books instead of paying for them because I'm thrifty"....might even be a virtue. From a personal finances pov.

[leebase]

FYI - for clarity...

Public libraries are a public good.

I'm just finding no reason to be all worked up by publishers withholding their books from libraries during a time window after they are released. People who want to read a popular "new release" book from the library...have to wait anyway. All but the fortunate FEW who happen to get on the waiting list first. So really, we are only talking about a SMALL number of people impacted by a 2 month waiting period. Everyone else is already waiting anyway. That's the deal with libraries. Having to wait...and having to return.

[Deskisamess]

We are able to get on a waiting list for pre-release books. You just need to be on the library site often enough to keep track. You can also recommend books they don't own yet, and will be adding automatically to a wait list if the book is purchased.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

I’ve raised the same point without the motives.

Your taxes equate to fractions of a cent per ebooks you borrow.

I'm not sure how you are computing that. It's true that a single person's taxes are only a fraction of the total. However, it's also true that a person will only checkout a small fraction of the books in the library. So, I don't think it's right to spread a person's taxes over thousands of books and then say they are only paying a tiny amount for any particular book they borrow. You are ignoring all the books they pay for that they don't borrow.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by rkomar

I'm not sure how you are computing that. It's true that a single person's taxes are only a fraction of the total. However, it's also true that a person will only checkout a small fraction of the books in the library. So, I don't think it's right to spread a person's taxes over thousands of books and then say they are only paying a tiny amount for any particular book they borrow. You are ignoring all the books they pay for that they don't borrow.

Why not, if one insists 'I pay taxes which support the library, thus I am paying for books', it follows that an assessment of how much they are actually paying should be made. Just because they do not use the full digital or physical library, nor the other services provided by a library does not mean whatever percentage of their taxes that has gone to the library isn't distributed among those services.

Also it's not like a single person is paying taxes, the larger the population the smaller your individual contribution likely is.

I'd also point out that by your logic those with low income who pay less in taxes would be less entitled to the books than those with higher tax rates, since that money goes to pay for more books. Obviously you can see that this goes against the whole point of libraries in the modern age.

[rkomar]

Is it wrong for someone to drive on the road even though they paid a miniscule amount to pave the spot their car is on? Is it wrong for a kid to go to school even though their parents only paid a fraction in taxes for the cost of the education? Of course, the answer is no; that's how services work. You spread the cost over many and allow equal access to the service. Libraries work the same way as any other service. You can fiddle the costs to make things look bad for some, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by rkomar

Is it wrong for someone to drive on the road even though they paid a miniscule amount to pave the spot their car is on? Is it wrong for a kid to go to school even though their parents only paid a fraction in taxes for the cost of the education? Of course, the answer is no; that's how services work. You spread the cost over many and allow equal access to the service. Libraries work the same way as any other service. You can fiddle the costs to make things look bad for some, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

Show me where anyone in this thread has said using the library is wrong.

Also nice try with the false equivalencies. The people who made and maintain the road are paid for their work directly. This isn’t the case with authors whose work is checked out from the library, yes there are benefits but those benefits are far more questionable than the straight pay those others get.

Publishers are running a business. Businesses are out to make a profit, they do not exist to serve the public. Now even setting everything at equal in terms of library patrons giving good word of mouth of a book vs buyers, and the people they influence into reading the book being equal again in numbers that borrow the book vs buy the book the publisher is going to see a bigger return from the buyers unless the license for libraries is astronomical.

Thus it makes sense for the publisher to try and entice buyers over borrowers. Which is what this 8 week wait is about.

After that 8 weeks everyone has access to the books. There’s no distinct public benefit to the public having immediate access to essentially free new release fiction books. Yeah you might be a bit behind the zeitgeist unless you buy the book and read it but chances are you’d be on a wait list anyway since statistically you’re not going to be the first one to check every ebook you want out as they become available. And this doesn’t present a drain on society.

Is it inconvenient for those who can’t afford to purchase every new book they want? I don’t really think so most of the people in this thread have said they have long TBR piles (digitally and or physically) so they’ve got plenty of reading material.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Thus it makes sense for the publisher to try and entice buyers over borrowers. Which is what this 8 week wait is about.

After that 8 weeks everyone has access to the books. There’s no distinct public benefit to the public having immediate access to essentially free new release fiction books. Yeah you might be a bit behind the zeitgeist unless you buy the book and read it but chances are you’d be on a wait list anyway since statistically you’re not going to be the first one to check every ebook you want out as they become available. And this doesn’t present a drain on society.

Is it inconvenient for those who can’t afford to purchase every new book they want? I don’t really think so most of the people in this thread have said they have long TBR piles (digitally and or physically) so they’ve got plenty of reading material.

What evidence is there that people will buy the book rather than wait? Seems to me that all the embargo will do is make people wait longer.

And why is there now apparently a special set of rules for e-books? Wouldn't the same logic apply to hardcover books? Why isn't Macmillan telling libraries they can have only one copy of a hardcover for the first eight weeks?

While I'm not all up in arms about this, I don't see how it's going to help increase sales; I think it's only going to inconvenience readers somewhat. As you noted, most of us have other books to read while we wait for a book, so why would be buy it instead?