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Old 11-05-2008, 01:31 PM   #31
radioflyertoo
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Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
True enough. It's just not attached to any biometric or other ID data, to prove the number is yours (one of the reasons for SS fraud). If it was attached to a national ID card, along with established rights and restrictions (right to drive, right to vote, registration in selective service, that kind of thing), and verifiable photo or biometric data, it would do the job.



I was given nothing for me to keep, and prove after the fact how I voted (or even that I did), other than an "I voted" sticker. The paper receipt for my ballot was kept with the machine on which I voted, using an electronic card, and the card (which I believe uses an RFD chip that could be erased with a powerful-enough EM signal) went into a cardboard box. I see this as a very non-verifiable system that desperately needs updating.
I agree with you about verfiable and such.

Gee all I got was a paper with a number on it you got a sticker.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:36 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
The problem with using SSN as an identifier is that the numbers are not unique. When the user of a SSN dies, the number is recycled.

Wasn't aware of that. Thank you. (Though it doesn't make sense that the government would do that but then quite often gibberish is goverment issue.)
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:42 PM   #33
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One issue that has been raised with respect to providing take-away proof of how the vote was cast is that it might enable "vote selling," as people could then prove (to the vote buyer) whom they voted for.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:49 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by nekokami View Post
One issue that has been raised with respect to providing take-away proof of how the vote was cast is that it might enable "vote selling," as people could then prove (to the vote buyer) whom they voted for.
That is a big concern.
Fortunately in my case it was just a stub that said I voted. The ballot stayed in the counting machine.
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Old 11-10-2008, 12:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
The original reason for it was that, in the early days of the United States, the country was extremely large and sparsely populated, and, before the days of good communications, there was simply no practical method for all the people to vote directly for President.
It also allows for some gerrymandering - the lower limit on the number of electors favours small states. But originally it also meant that two people had to die before the process had to be re-done, making it more reliable. When there were only a few states and they were roughly the same size that wasn't important. Today I think it's one of the smaller flaws.

The US electoral system definitely could use a shake-up, if nothing else isn't it about time you involved some professionals? Most democracies have an independent electoral commission that employs (and trains) bureaucrats whose job is to run the elctions properly. Which means that (for instance) New Zealand had its elections four days after the US and already knows the result because we employ people who can count to do just that. The system scales - Australia uses the same princliples and a more complex voting system which sometimes takes a few days to rattle through if the result depends on special votes (mostly out-of-electorate votes).

I voted and in the five minutes (literally) I spent in the building I saw perhaps ten other voters. We also vote on a Saturday and employers are legally obliged to facilitate voting by their employees (of course, since it takes 5 minutes that's not exactly a giant imposition).

The main reason *for* the current US system that I can see is that when it was set up most people (viz, rich white men) were not keen to pay for a bureacracy to administer it, and since the US was so small at the time there wasn't a pressing need to do so. So they let the people who were interested run it, and accepted that "active in politics" almost always means "running for election". These days the US is a couple of orders of magnitude bigger, significantly more complex and there's no reason to let partisan hacks have anything to do with running the elections. FFS, the UN does a better job.

Of course, switching to a democratic system would be good too, but baby steps, people, baby steps. First get the current system actually implemented properly, then start wondering if it could be changed. Unless you decide that it can't be made to work, then change it to one that can. But since other countries run systems broadly similar to yours without most of the problems you have, surely you can manage it too?
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:08 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
Of course, to make the system more secure and direct-vote would mean more secure personal identification, and probably a national ID
Why?

In countries where there's a bit of scince behind the electoral system people actually measure voting fraud and base decisions on the results, rather than on the wishful thinking of partisan hacks. The research in anglonesia suggests that even with the negligable voter tracking we have voter fraud is very low. The system allows us to remove duplicate votes ("vote early and vote often") and fake registrations (posting confirmations to the registered address). Odd results are investigated and so on, but overall it does not seem to be a problem. When results are within a percent or less there's a mandatory recount and from time to time the media publish stories about dodgy registrations being detected. People who collection registrations get some training on the issue (it's been 15+ years since I did it).

The system, BTW, is "turn up, state your name and address, vote". Have-a-nice-day-citizen-thank-you-for-voting. Oztraya asks for ID but the options for that ID are many and varied. Kiwis get posted a "speedyvote" card or something that basically is your necessary details typed out on a bit of paper, so that "Therese Bielski of 27/272 Whangapeka(-with-an-H) St, Oututahi" does not have to spend 15 minutes spelling things out before she can be found on the electoral roll. The OZ system of showing ID seems to amount to the same thing (and in both cases I believe you can vote anywhere in the country without ID by signing a statutory declaration. Penalties for false decl. are non-trivial (fine and criminal conviction?)).

Actually, one other nice thing in NZ: if you have to pay tax, you get to vote[1]. I know the US allegedly fought a war on an issue like this and there was a fluffy slogan bandied about, but something that really p!sses me off is that in most countries where voting is de rigeur there are draconian restrictions on *who* exactly gets to vote. Surely it should be the other way round - encourage everyone to vote, open it up as widely as possible and only restrict the minimum necessary groups? Voting should be a responsibility, not a privilege.

[1] children under 18 may not apply, offer not open to the criminally insane.
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:56 AM   #37
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Social Security Numbers are also not unique aamong people still alive. There are many cases of scrambled earnings where two people are using the same number. (This is beyond the cases of non-citizens using a normal SSN or of identity theft.)
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Old 11-11-2008, 12:07 PM   #38
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This question seems to come up during almost any transition of party in the U.S. Election. There is an old straight dope article that covers this with a reasonable amount of accuracy and a fair bit of humor:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...being-sworn-in
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