Boox Max 2 - poor quality and problem with returns to ereader-store.de

[Randy11]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

It's not intended to be funny - why would think that it is? If @booxtor is serious about informing his customers, ought he not include a clear description of the limitations?

Hello Marcoscriven,

I suppose that your expectations are too high in comparison of the technology, but the main problem is probably what I call a "cultural problem".

I give you an example that I know. In my professional activity some people defined a temperature as "cold" when the temperature is 100 mK (100E-3 Kelvin) and "hot" at 1 K... Ok, I can work with this. But some other people use "cold" for 1.8 K and "hot" for 4.2 K ... Why not ? The situation is not easy when some other people use "cold" for a temperature of 573 K !
This real example show that for "cold", the temperature could be 0.1 K, 1.8 K, 573 K. The definition of "cold" is "cultural".

Like for the e-readers or the E-ink technology, some things or assertion must be understood in the culture of this technology.

The videos of the monitor mode are, for me, extraordinary and I will be happy to use this mode. The screen is infinitely better than the screen of my old Onyx M92. Maybe, what you judge as a defect of the display is for me a fantastic improvement.

Because I navigate for a long time now in the "e-ink/e-reader culture", my expectations are different and my understanding of the "commercial characteristics" too.

You could have some real troubles with the delivered device. But, for the main part, the descriptions seem realistic. Now, when you look at this forum, it's impossible to wait a perfect software, it's bad but true. We expect the main things are really useable without bugs.

[Booxtor]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

Here you go:

>No glare or reflection.

Not true

>Energy efficient.

Not true

>no reflection, even in strong sunlight you will be able to read your documents easily.

Not true

> Lowest power consumption

Not true

> The HDMI port implemented in this device allows you to connect your MAX2 PRO to a PC and use the device as a secondary monitor. So you can take care of your eyes additionally.

Only partly true, if I'm being generous. But the software is flaky so it doesn't work at all sometimes, and the lag is so severe as to make it unusable as a second monitor even when it does.

Hm.. you points above concern the description of EINK Mobius carta screen:

"A really fantastic big screen with ambient light reflection. Very sharp with the resolution of 2200x1650 pixels and high contrast (15:1). No glare or reflection. Energy efficient. Your eyes will thank you. The best way to read your documents in original A4 or US Letter format. E-Ink screen uses only ambient light reflection. No flicker, no glare, no reflection, even in strong sunlight you will be able to read your documents easily.
...
Lowest power consumption
An EINK Mobius screen has lowest power consumption level in the eReader industry. Unlike other technologies, an e-ink screen is bi-stable, which means that it does not need power to hold an image or text page."


It is indeed energy efficient and offers lowest possible power consumption. It is also glare free in comparison with regular screens used in tablets PSs, Notebooks or smartphones. Users of those tablet PCs are often very annoyed by glaring and darkened on the sun light screens. So we mentioned benefits of EINK screens, which are confirmed and valued by every EINK screen user.
Do you really mean it was kind of misleading information?

[marcosscriven]

Originally Posted by Randy11

Hello Marcoscriven,

I give you an example that I know. In my professional activity some people defined a temperature as "cold" when the temperature is 100 mK (10E-3 Kelvin) and "hot" at 1 K... Ok, I can work with this. But some other people use "cold" for 1.8 K and "hot" for 4.2 K ... Why not ? The situation is not easy when some other people use "cold" for a temperature of 573 K !
This real example show that for "cold", the temperature could be 0.1 K, 1.8 K, 573 K. The definition of "cold" is "cultural".

I really don't think temperature is a great analogy here. If you're talking about Kelvin rather the C/F you're unlikely to be talking about the weather! 1K being 'hot', being within a degree of absolute zero, would indeed only be considered hot in some very specific (and scientific) contexts.

Can you go back to my original list of concerns in the original post? I don't think this is a complex topic, and we can just talk about the actual thing without needing to refer to abstract scenarios.

As a software engineer responsible for plenty of bugs myself, I'm not expecting things to be perfect.

[marcosscriven]

Originally Posted by Booxtor

Hm.. you points above concern the description of EINK Mobius carta screen:

"A really fantastic big screen with ambient light reflection. Very sharp with the resolution of 2200x1650 pixels and high contrast (15:1). No glare or reflection. Energy efficient. Your eyes will thank you. The best way to read your documents in original A4 or US Letter format. E-Ink screen uses only ambient light reflection. No flicker, no glare, no reflection, even in strong sunlight you will be able to read your documents easily.
...
Lowest power consumption
An EINK Mobius screen has lowest power consumption level in the eReader industry. Unlike other technologies, an e-ink screen is bi-stable, which means that it does not need power to hold an image or text page."


It is indeed energy efficient and offers lowest possible power consumption. It is also glare free in comparison with regular screens used in tablets PSs, Notebooks or smartphones. Users of those tablet PCs are often very annoyed by glaring and darkened on the sun light screens. So we mentioned benefits of EINK screens, which are confirmed and valued by every EINK screen user.
Do you really mean it was kind of misleading information?

The description and photos led me to believe I could expect the headline features (secondary monitor, use in a vertical mode) would work without the issues I've raised here.

We disagree with each other.

That seems unlikely to change.

If you're serious about customer service, I reiterate:

• Explain why you changed your returns page wording
• Update your product description to make these limitations clear to future customers
• Take customer's issues seriously, and don't just put the onus on them to rectify or pay to return

[Booxtor]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

The description and photos led me to believe I could expect the headline features (secondary monitor, use in a vertical mode) would work without the issues I've raised here.

We disagree with each other.

That seems unlikely to change.

If you're serious about customer service, I reiterate:

• Explain why you changed your returns page wording
• Update your product description to make these limitations clear to future customers
• Take customer's issues seriously, and don't just put the onus on them to rectify or pay to return

There is a video I made using Max2 as Monitor in vertical mode. It worked just fine for me and my notebook. We cannot guaranty it will work on every device though. Perhaps there are some incompatible PCs. Reports are helpful for solutions.

Only our terms an conditions matter for our agreement. Information pages are there to explain things and can be changed/removed/ignored. Especially in your case there is no reason to stuck on them because description was correct and you tried to use your subjective interpretation of it and opinion concerning probably conflict between your expectations and reality as reason for complain and to save shipping on return. You seem to have a lot of time to keep this thread alive, even you have got convincing replies from other customers, who tries to calm down you

I really think it has been enough explained and expect you to act according to our agreement and terms and conditions. I cannot afford to spend more time for this. It is very easy - if you don't like it, give it back. Finally even in case of brick and mortar store you would have to bring purchased good yourself to the store . If you would ask a seller there to refund your expenses for gas or taxi, it would be at least kind of strange.
For online store it is usual to share shipping expenses in regular case of return and only in cases, when product does not match description (which means you ordered a shirt but got a pair of shoes) shipping costs must be paid by seller both ways. In your case you have ordered a Max2 and got a Max2. Anything else in this discussion is rather kind of polemic

[marcosscriven]

> Only our terms an conditions matter for our agreement. Information pages are there to explain things and can be changed/removed/ignored.

I suggest then you either delete the https://ereader-store.de/en/content/6-returns page, or add to the top "the words on this page are meaningless".

>Especially in your case there is no reason to stuck on them because description was correct and you tried to use your subjective interpretation of it and opinion concerning probably conflict between your expectations and reality as reason for complain and to save shipping on return.

Translation: Customer's fault

> You seem to have a lot of time to keep this thread alive, even you have got convincing replies from other customers, who tries to calm down you

I'm simply trying to get answers, which you're not providing.

>I really think it has been enough explained and expect you to act according to our agreement and terms and conditions.

Nothing has been explained. You are refusing to acknowledge serious issues with the product. I am stuck with that product, unless I spend money to return it to you. That is not fair.


> I cannot afford to spend more time for this. It is very easy - if you don't like it, give it back.

If it's so easy, why not pay for me to return it? Why should I pay €40 for the privilege of getting my money back? How could I even trust you now, even if I did pay to return it? Maybe you would just change your pages again, and claim some restocking fee, or claim the product wasn't in the same condition it was sent.

> Finally even in case of brick and mortar store you would have to bring purchased good yourself to the store . If you would ask a seller there to refund your expenses for gas or taxi, it would be at least kind of strange.

This is complete nonsense, and I'm sure you know that. I can and do return poor items into brick and mortar stores for a full refund. Delivery costs don't come into it in that situation.

> For online store it is usual to share shipping expenses in regular case of return and only in cases, when product does not match description (which means you ordered a shirt but got a pair of shoes) shipping costs must be paid by seller both ways.

Again, you simply disparage me and my concerns about that product. And you're doing this to prove to others reading you have good customer service?

> In your case you have ordered a Max2 and got a Max2.

Well, finally, something we can agree on...

> Anything else in this discussion is rather kind of polemic

You could actually acknowledge the issues here and compromise on return costs. However, clearly you won't.

In summary:

• You are quite happy to sell a poor product, with major problems, and have no care for the customer
• Your pages regarding returns mean nothing, and can be changed to mean another sort of nothing
• You are more interested in your profits, than me now being stuck with an expensive device that isn't fit for purpose (unless I pay even more to return it).

[Question Mark]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

The description and photos led me to believe I could expect the headline features (secondary monitor, use in a vertical mode) would work without the issues I've raised here.

The unfortunate placement of the power button on the various Max devices is a well known issue, and one which has easy workarounds.

You can use the device in vertical mode by either rotating the screen 180 degrees or by putting some cushioning underneath it such that the power button will not be triggered when standing upright.

And, actually, if you look closely at the photos on the vendor's site, you will see that, in the pictures of it in the vertical mode, the right side is slightly raised so that the power button is not being triggered. In the picture of the device in the horizontal mode, both sides are flush on the table. So the pictures on the site are not misleading in the least.

Usually, before spending a large amount of money on a device, I will do my homework, reading as much as possible on both the manufacturer and the vendor. That is what saved me from backing the Indiegogo campaign for the 13.3 inch Good e-Reader.

With expensive new devices, I will also often wait until others have been using it for a while to see how the device holds up in the real world. That`s why I waited to purchase my Max and why I didn't join in on the Remarkable campaign. There are often significant bugs in new devices when they first come out even with well known brands like Kobo and Kindle.

Unfortunately, for some reason, you neglected to do your homework before making your purchase and you are now having a case of buyer's remorse. However, as far as I can gather, the device does conform to the description listed on the website.

[marcosscriven]

Originally Posted by Question Mark

The unfortunate placement of the power button on the various Max devices is a well known issue, and one which has easy workarounds.

You can use the device in vertical mode by either rotating the screen 180 degrees or by putting some cushioning underneath it such that the power button will not be triggered when standing upright.

And, actually, if you look closely at the photos on the vendor's site, you will see that, in the pictures of it in the vertical mode, the right side is slightly raised so that the power button is not being triggered. In the picture of the device in the horizontal mode, both sides are flush on the table. So the pictures on the site are not misleading in the least.

Usually, before spending a large amount of money on a device, I will do my homework, reading as much as possible on both the manufacturer and the vendor. That is what saved me from backing the Indiegogo campaign for the 13.3 inch Good e-Reader.

With expensive new devices, I will also often wait until others have been using it for a while to see how the device holds up in the real world. That`s why I waited to purchase my Max and why I didn't join in on the Remarkable campaign. There are often significant bugs in new devices when they first come out even with well known brands like Kobo and Kindle.

Unfortunately, for some reason, you neglected to do your homework before making your purchase and you are now having a case of buyer's remorse. However, as far as I can gather, the device does conform to the description listed on the website.

Hang on - so I’m meant to analyse those photos to see a teeny tiny support stopping the power button being depressed? And you really think that’s not misleading?

And by your logic, no one would buy any product, because who would be the first person to actually write about it as a customer, if every potential customer waited?

Finally, if that were the only issue I’d deal with it, but it’s not.

Why do you think it’s my fault the Boox Max 2 has these problems?!

[Question Mark]

¸

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

Hang on - so I’m meant to analyse those photos to see a teeny tiny support stopping the power button being depressed? And you really think that’s not misleading?

No, I don’t find it misleading. The device can be used as shown. And the placement of the power button on the Max devices is a well known issue.

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

And by your logic, no one would buy any product, because who would be the first person to actually write about it as a customer, if every potential customer waited?

Perhaps if everyone were as cautious as me, that would be the case. However, there will always be early adopters of new technology. Some have more technological expertise and are able to independently solve issues that might arise. Others have more disposable income.

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

Finally, if that were the only issue I’d deal with it, but it’s not.

Why do you think it’s my fault the Boox Max 2 has these problems?!

As I already stated, new devices will initially have bugs. If you look at the thread about the original Max when it first came out, there were significant issues with the software. Many of them have been remedied with subsequent updates to the firmware. I waited until many of the bugs had been ironed out before making my purchase.

I expect there will be similar birthing pains with the Max 2. I also expect that they will be ironed out. If you choose to be an early adopter, that is a risk that you undertake. As a software engineer, that is surely something you should be aware of.

Also, some of your complaints seem somewhat frivolous. For example, your comment about imperfect English in the software or latency issues when using a mouse. I find the English on the Max to be quite passable and expect that the English on the Max 2 is rather similar. Latency issues when using a mouse on eink devices are well known and to be expected.

[oranges]

I have a proposal - what if OP and Booxtor split the cost for returns because there was a big misunderstanding. OP ships it back and Booxtor returns full amount minus half shipping cost

this way OP doesnt eat the entire shipping cost, there will be less drama, and it will free up time for Booxtor to continue working with Onyx on existing firmware / software issues

[Question Mark]

Originally Posted by oranges

I have a proposal - what if OP and Booxtor split the cost for returns because there was a big misunderstanding. OP ships it back and Booxtor returns full amount minus half shipping cost

this way OP doesnt eat the entire shipping cost, there will be less drama, and it will free up time for Booxtor to continue working with Onyx on existing firmware / software issues

From what I understand, Booxtor has already paid the cost of shipping it there. Because the device has now been opened and used, he might also have to take a hit if he were to resell it. Open box items usually sell for less than brand new models. Offering to refund the purchase price on a unit which does not seem to be defective is already more than generous in my opinion.

Some big stores have no questions return policies. I know some people who will take advantage of such policies, ordering several items fully intending to only keep one, after they have tested them out. The profit margins of such large companies often allow them to implement such policies. However, even Amazon has been known to suspend the accounts of those with unusually high return rates.

I have seldom had to return an item because I usually invest the time in checking it out beforehand. However, it has been my experience that many stores will ask the customer to pay for the cost of return shipping unless the item is defective. Some will also charge restocking fees when you return a non-defective item. That seems quite fair to me.

The issues which the OP has raised seem rather frivolous. It seems that the OP is grasping at straws to find something wrong because the OP did not invest sufficient time in checking out what such devices are and are not capable of. I would be very curious to know how much effort the OP put into researching this device before purchasing it.

If the device were defective, it would be a different matter. But from what I gather, that does not seem to be the case. And, from what I gather, the description of the product on the website seems to be consistent with the device which the OP received.

[cqman]

Originally Posted by Question Mark

¸

Very well said.

[marcosscriven]

>No, I don’t find it misleading. The device can be used as shown. And the placement of the power button on the Max devices is a well known issue.

Well, I didn't know about it. It's a new product, I didn't know where the power button was placed.

>Perhaps if everyone were as cautious as me, that would be the case. However, there will always be early adopters of new technology. Some have more technological expertise and are able to independently solve issues that might arise. Others have more disposable income.

I have a masters degree in computing and electronics, from one of the world's top universities. I assume that's not enough technical expertise? And how do you propose I would be able to 'solve' the issues I mentioned myself? You are implying I am simply stupid. Thanks for that


>As I already stated, new devices will initially have bugs. If you look at the thread about the original Max when it first came out, there were significant issues with the software. Many of them have been remedied with subsequent updates to the firmware. I waited until many of the bugs had been ironed out before making my purchase.

Well, good for you. That's not the case here. But again, by your logic, all those people that bought it and reported bugs in the first case were stupid people, just splashing their cash. Good job I suppose, because then you being a supremely clever person were able to buy one.

>I expect there will be similar birthing pains with the Max 2. I also expect that they will be ironed out. If you choose to be an early adopter, that is a risk that you undertake. As a software engineer, that is surely something you should be aware of.

I would not expect such an expensive device to have such serious issues, no.

>Also, some of your complaints seem somewhat frivolous. For example, your comment about imperfect English in the software or latency issues when using a mouse. I find the English on the Max to be quite passable and expect that the English on the Max 2 is rather similar.

Ok, so as well as not having any technical expertise, now I'm frivolous too.

> Latency issues when using a mouse on eink devices are well known and to be expected.

Again, no I didn't expect this when in the description it says it can be used as a secondary monitor.

[marcosscriven]

>From what I understand, Booxtor has already paid the cost of shipping it there. Because the device has now been opened and used, he might also have to take a hit if he were to resell it.

He paid to send it, not to return it.

>Open box items usually sell for less than brand new models. Offering to refund the purchase price on a unit which does not seem to be defective is already more than generous in my opinion.

You have made your opinion clear, whilst also throwing in some insults.

> Some big stores have no questions return policies. I know some people who will take advantage of such policies, ordering several items fully intending to only keep one, after they have tested them out.

Well, I've ordered only one large ereader here, and that's the Max 2. I was 'fully intending' to keep it. However, no doubt you'll assume I'm lying, and that I like to club baby seals for good measure.

> The profit margins of such large companies often allow them to implement such policies. However, even Amazon has been known to suspend the accounts of those with unusually high return rates.

Again, you are imply I am returning at 'unusually high rates', when that is not true.

> I have seldom had to return an item because I usually invest the time in checking it out beforehand.

Translation, yet again you're accusing me of being dumb here.

>However, it has been my experience that many stores will ask the customer to pay for the cost of return shipping unless the item is defective. Some will also charge restocking fees when you return a non-defective item. That seems quite fair to me.

I tend to avoid retailers that are happy to put the onus of a poor product entirely on the customer. You however seem to believe in unmitigated capitalism, where there's no need at all for customers to be protected, and businesses to do completely as they wish.

> The issues which the OP has raised seem rather frivolous. It seems that the OP is grasping at straws to find something wrong because the OP did not invest sufficient time in checking out what such devices are and are not capable of.

Again with the derogation. Thanks.

> I would be very curious to know how much effort the OP put into researching this device before purchasing it.

Again, the implication I'm at fault.

[cqman]

Originally Posted by marcosscriven

>

No E ink products at the moment can meet all your expectations. Return it and come back 10 years later.

Your posts remind me of this explanation from Dasuang.