MobileRead May 2016 Discussion: The Steerswoman (spoilers)

[RosemaryKirstein]

Originally Posted by Dazrin

I did find myself wondering how many of the obvious clues wouldn't have been obvious if I didn't know that this was a science fiction book rather than a fantasy book.

Dazrin: It's a good point. I'm always interested in finding out at what point each reader realized that it was science fiction -- but in this case you all knew right up front.

In talking to readers in the past, I've found that it's very individual, and a lot depends on what you expect when you're going in. And for some really dedicated fantasy readers, they'll continue to consider the books to be fantasy, even when the science is absolutely explicit -- they'll just assume it's a fantasy book with some science in it.

Even professional critics can get murky on this. For example, there's an Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, and an Encyclopedia of Fantasy. And I'm listed in the Encyclopedia of Fantasy. Because (and I find this interesting), even though there's no magic, the plot of the book operates entirely in within the classic fantasy mode, and to the editors of the Encyclopedia of Fantasy, that was the most important thing.

[Dazrin]

Originally Posted by RosemaryKirstein

Even professional critics can get murky on this. For example, there's an Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, and an Encyclopedia of Fantasy. And I'm listed in the Encyclopedia of Fantasy. Because (and I find this interesting), even though there's no magic, the plot of the book operates entirely in within the classic fantasy mode, and to the editors of the Encyclopedia of Fantasy, that was the most important thing.

I can certainly understand that position. The Steerswoman, even after spoiling it for myself and knowing I was wrong, still had me fooled. It just never felt like a science fiction book. In the vote thread one person went as far as "this is fantasy, not science fiction, we need a do-over!" And that was after being ensured that it was SF. I really liked that slightly confused feeling, not many books can completely fool you as to what genre they are. Especially not after being told what it is.

The largest "science fiction masquerading as fantasy" series that I can think of is the Pern series. They have fire-breathing dragons and a low tech society but when the reveal about their beginnings came and we find out that it is science fiction rather than fantasy it wasn't that surprising. I felt more relief than anything. "Oh, that's why this hasn't felt like fantasy. It isn't!"

With The Steerswoman, even though I spoiled it for myself and the dragons feel a little mechanical (glass eyes breaking?) and there is obviously a lot of high-technology being hidden by the wizards, the story always felt like a fantasy. I know in my head that it is science fiction but the writing style says THIS IS FANTASY and I just can't get my heart to believe anything else. Wonderful feeling really.

[Grey Ram]

I think I’m finally getting somewhere…

Dazrin: yep, in retrospective labeling this book as science fiction changed the way y approached it and should be considered a spoiler; sorry CRussel, it wasn’t your fault, you did your best, pal .
Even though early on the dragons are described as being basically metallic, then an electric protection around a wizard’s crate is described and then an electric lamp is blatantly shoved in my face when reaching port, had I been told this was a fantasy book, I would probably have gone right along, without questioning too much the principles underlying such contraptions.

pdurrant: you are right, it is mentioned during the ship’s clearing, and the way Will walks screams “I’m carrying nitroglycerin!”. I guess I didn’t pay much attention to all the clues and also it was never mentioned that he was carrying liquids or how he was carrying them. I was thinking that Will had discovered black powder by accident, which is certainly plausible with medieval technology; but nitroglycerin is completely out of reach of an accidental discovery with the same technology.

But then DiapDealer mentions that

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think it's a mistake to assume that Willam's "magic" was limited to something as primitive as black powder. I get the distinct impression that his seemingly inherent chemical knowledge (albeit, perhaps, limited to things explosive in nature) is not at all basic.

Now, this puts things in another light entirely; if Will was born with that knowledge, he got black powder at his first try without blowing himself up (well... sans two fingers), then got the hang of it and obtained nitroglycerin at first try without further incident. That still leaves the problem of how he obtained the materials, but hey, I’m not complaining, I take it, I got it

This last one ups the ante about the technology level that the wizards have, but at the same time explains nicely the stunt they pulled with the tortured soldier: he couldn’t give the information even though he tried, because his speech was utter nonsense. This raises the question of why a Wizard would bother encrypting the information that a random soldier holds, and… I know, I know, don’t roll your eyes at me

Overall, this discussions has helped me a lot in uderstanding this book, and has made think a little harder than usual when reading ficion, all

[Grey Ram]

Turning to another matter, what if the lamp technician was a victim of the same ‘magic’ the soldier was? Would the ban still apply? That is, what if he was literally incapable of providing the information that Rowan wanted, even though he obviously possessed it?

And this leads me to question Rowans commitment to knowledge and truth and the way of the Steerswomen. Back to the lamp technician, she bans him but still answers one question from him. The jeweler refuses to answer her how does he make the tiny strips in the jewels? and she doesn’t ban him, she doesn’t even consider it. When finding out that Will knows how to make ‘magic’ she doesn’t jump on him like a chicken on a junebug to try and find how he makes it… probably she’s afraid she’ll have to ban him when he doesn’t tell.

And that’s other thing she does, she refrains from making some questions from fear that she’ll be refused and forced to ban the questioned; she stops looking for the truth… out of fear . Or she tries to work around the spirit of the rules by volunteering information without being questioned.

To be fair, neither the wizards make a sterling job themselves. The young ones basically spill the beans to Rowan, showing her their satellite maps, telling her how the solar cells are used, and some other things that I don’t remember right now. Probably they thought she was going to die anyway, but what a James Bond Villain they pulled. And then the wizard at Wolfsburg, talking about conflicts among his fellow wizards, volunteering information about the satellites, and to a Steerswoman to boot! If things keep going like this, the wizard’s secrets won’t last too long.

[Hampshire Nanny]

Originally Posted by RosemaryKirstein

Dazrin: It's a good point. I'm always interested in finding out at what point each reader realized that it was science fiction -- but in this case you all knew right up front.

I may be one of the few who didn't know how The Steerswoman was officially classified before reading it. I didn't participate in the discussions and voting -- just saw several strong recommendations in the What are we reading? thread. So I decided to get a copy from Amazon, read it and join the discussion.

I was quite unsure whether this fell into science fiction or fantasy for at least the first third of the book, and even now that I'm convinced it's SF, it still has the "character" of an epic fantasy. If I hadn't had a bunch of on request books suddenly show up at the library, I'd already be deep into book 2 or even 3.

I'm eager to find out whether this is a world like Pern where people have forgotten that technology even existed after being stranded on a new planet. Or perhaps they have been plunged into pre-technological existence after a major apocalyptic event -- or something even different (scientific and/or social experiment?). I'm glad there are several more books set in this world since I like LONG books and LONG series. (I figure if I'm going to invest a lot of time and interest in these people, they should stick around for a while!)

Thanks to Rosemary for participating in the discussion.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Grey Ram

The jeweler refuses to answer her how does he make the tiny strips in the jewels? and she doesn’t ban him, she doesn’t even consider it.

She's not a Steerswoman at that point. She resigned to take up the quest--so she could lie (and be lied to or ignored). From the time they leave the Archives in chapter eleven until she gets captured by Shammer and Dhree in chapter twenty-two, she's not bound by the usual Steerswoman rules.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Hampshire Nanny

I may be one of the few who didn't know how The Steerswoman was officially classified before reading it. I didn't participate in the discussions and voting -- just saw several strong recommendations in the What are we reading? thread. So I decided to get a copy from Amazon, read it and join the discussion.

Same here.

Originally Posted by Hampshire Nanny

I was quite unsure whether this fell into science fiction or fantasy for at least the first third of the book, and even now that I'm convinced it's SF, it still has the "character" of an epic fantasy. If I hadn't had a bunch of on request books suddenly show up at the library, I'd already be deep into book 2 or even 3.

I had my suspicions that it wasn't typical fantasy fare pretty early, but wasn't certain until the electric lights in chapter eight.

[Hampshire Nanny]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I had my suspicions that it wasn't typical fantasy fare pretty early, but wasn't certain until the electric lights in chapter eight.

Though I've run into lights powered by magic in other books, so didn't feel that the streetlights *had* to be electric -- just that they *could* be.

[CRussel]

It's hard to remember, now, when I first realized it wasn't fantasy but SF, since I first read this >25 years ago. And it does have somewhat of a feel of fantasy in the writing style even knowing all I know now. But the discussion in Chapter 2, where Rowan and Bel are discussing how the blue jewels fell was my first clue, but then that's immediately followed by the tarot (or equivalent) cards, pushing you back to thinking it's really fantasy. Rosemary is really quite clever, hiding and misdirecting you while giving you clues at the same time. It's fun!

[issybird]

I'm late to the discussion and entirely unfamiliar with SFF tropes, so forgive me for what is quite probably a jejune comment. I was very strongly struck by the point that whlle there is no moon, at least legend says there was one once. To me, this screamed a combination of a post-apocalyptic world plus time travel and the wizards were travelers from the past who either couldn't get back or chose to stay in the future as overlords by benefit of their technological expertise.

Going back to lurking....

[CRussel]

Now THAT is an interesting take on who the wizards are. And one I would never have gotten to, though I see how you got there. I think events in the second book point us in a different direction, but no spoilers -- you'll have to read that book to get that set of answers. And you'll need to read even further to get other answers. And even more questions. Kind of like being a Steerswoman, I guess.

[issybird]

I think my unfamiliarity with the genre combined with general obtuseness led me to leaping to the tired and obvious, rather than the subtle!

[CRussel]

"general obtuseness"? - I don't think so! Certainly it's not your usual genre, though. I hope you enjoyed it, and maybe it will even help you stretch out to try a few more in this genre (whichever it is. )

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by issybird

To me, this screamed a combination of a post-apocalyptic world plus time travel and the wizards were travelers from the past who either couldn't get back or chose to stay in the future as overlords by benefit of their technological expertise.

An interesting take. I'd love to confirm or deny, but that would involver spoilers for the subsequent books. I think I can safely say that you will find out if you're right or not in the subsequent books.

[CRussel]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I think I can safely say that you will find out if you're right or not in the subsequent books.

Now that is certainly true.

There's one serious problem with our reading The Steerswoman this month -- I'm now back to really wanting Ms. Kirstein to hurry up and finish this story! There are still so many questions I haven't figured out the answers to.