What makes a story EPIC?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by murg

The original manuscripts had this exact premise.

Hmmm. I have the 3-volume hardback set "The History of Middle Earth" which documents Tolkien's development of the book in great detail, and I certainly don't recall this. Do you have any references to it, please?

[DiapDealer]

I believe murg's post was an example of deadpan humor, Harry.

[HarryT]

That's the reason I asked for a reference, because I honestly don't believe the claim to be accurate.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by theducks

Huh

IIRC The movie (closing) showed the Ark in a lowest basement in some government museum/ warehouse

Which has since been shown to be the very leaky WAREHOUSE 13.


(Okay, I'm done with the Warehouse hints.)

But WAREHOUSE 13 does meet a lot of the epic traits which suggests a true epic is going to have to meet most of the traits.

Which reminds me: could a comedy be a true epic? Or do epics have to be dead serious somber overall? Is there room for whimsy in "epic"?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Which reminds me: could a comedy be a true epic? Or do epics have to be dead serious somber overall? Is there room for whimsy in "epic"?

There's plenty of room for whimsy/comedy in my definition of epic. Warehouse 13, Eureka, and the various Stargate series all qualify in my book (though maybe not all epic fantasy).

I recently finished Kage Baker's The Anvil of the World (first in her Lord Ermenwyr series), and while I didn't get an epic vibe when it began ... I certainly had one by the time it wrapped up. It was definitely humorous, quite satiric and, at times, whimsical.

[drjenkins]

This is from the movie In a Lonely Place.

Dixon Steele is a screenwriter played by Humphrey Bogart. Mildred Atkinson is a hat check girl who is reading the novel Dixon is going to turn into a screenplay.

Mildred Atkinson: Oh I think it'll make a dreamy picture, Mr. Steele. What I call an epic.

Dixon Steele: And what do you call an epic?

Mildred Atkinson: Well, you know - a picture that's REAL long and has lots of things going on.

So there you have it, an epic is real long and has lots of things going on.

[Kasper Hviid]

Originally Posted by Nancy Fulda

(...) So I'm trying to pin down what creates the feel of an epic work. What gives it that sense of sweeping scope and resonating significance?

As I come to understand it, 'epic' is about the solidity of the stories world, and the way this makes the reader become part of it.

For instance, I would call the book MOTHERLINE epic, due to its solid world and characters. I also think GANGS OF NEW YORK had that epic thing going. Stephen Kings IT was epic too.

If the protagonist don't care about the world -- if he just sits on his ass posting likes on Facebook, because, like, whatever -- then his mental image of his world lacks solidity. If the characters don't feel passionate about their world, why should the reader?

On the other hand, when the characters give a fuck - for instance, if they are fighting against some sort of evil force - then it gives the universe solidity. But, I don't think a saving-the-world plot or any other fantasy cliché in themselves makes a story 'epic'.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Which reminds me: could a comedy be a true epic? Or do epics have to be dead serious somber overall? Is there room for whimsy in "epic"?

How about DOCTOR STRANGELOVE?

[MikeB1972]

I always go with the descriptions at the start of one of James Bibby's books

“Epic…” – 700 pages of turgid dross.
“Meticulously crafted…” – written very, very slowly with a large quill pen.
“Confrontational…” – lots of swearing.
“…hard-hitting” – the author gets violent when drunk.
“…a writer unafraid to push back the boundaries of language…” – he can’t spell, and as for his punctuation…
“Scholarly…”- desperately, mind-numbingly dull.
“Still available from good bookshops everywhere.” - no-one’s bought it.
“A remarkable step forward in publishing…” – we’ve dropped a right bollock with this one!
“Critically acclaimed…” – there goes our Christmas bonus.
“…this eagerly awaited second volume…” – of a two-book contract. We’ve been waiting to get rid of the untalented little get!
“You won’t be disappointed…” – unless you buy the book, that is.

BTW, if you like Pratchett it's worth giving his books a try

[Kasper Hviid]

Ha, epic one, Mike! Sounds a bit like the humour in MAD magazine.

Anyway, I think the original poster talks about the adjective, not the noun. These two words are related, but they're not the same. That something is an epic (a specific, outdate genre) doesn't guarantee that it is epic.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

The Enigmatic Adviser Who Withholds Information/Resources (That Could Have Considerably Shortened Both the Length and the Arduousness of the Good Guy's Ordeal).

Frodo; looking up at the giant eagle that plucked him to safety in the nick of time from the slopes of an erupting Mount Doom: "Hey Sam, remind me to kick Gandalf in the junk after I wake up back in Rivendell."

LOLOLOL....

That's what I first thought after reading Lord of the Rings for the first time 15 years ago, after a friend turned me toward fantasy and RPG's.

"Why couldn't Gandalf/Frodo have called on that eagle to drop off Frodo and Sam 5 miles from the gates of Mordor? (Or even, on top of Mount Doom itself, after distracting Sauron...)"

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Which reminds me: could a comedy be a true epic? Or do epics have to be dead serious somber overall? Is there room for whimsy in "epic"?

No, no whimsy. Epic stories and fantasy need to be dead-serious and utterly grim. Any sort of intentional comic relief ruins it, except if it fits the story perfectly.

In my mind, most instances of comic relief between Legolas and Gimli in the Lord of the Rings movies worked very well (except for Gimli falling off a horse and burping in an important meeting).

My absolute favorite:

Legolas: "What about dying beside a friend?"
Gimli: "Aye... I can live with that."

The comic relief in The Hobbit (Alfried) was just ridiculous and not funny. I hate that kind of characters. They add nothing except ridiculousness.

[DiapDealer]

So ... no humor (unless it's humor that works for you, and then it's ok). Got it!

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

So ... no humor (unless it's humor that works for you, and then it's ok). Got it!

No, you're missing the point.

There can be humor in fantasy stories, but it needs to feel right, such as witty remarks, like many exchanges between/about Legolas and Gimli. Humor such as Alfried in The Hobbit is just pointless. It's a random character tacked onto the movie to provide "comic relief", and serves no purpose in the story otherwise.

That's not humor; it's just irritating. (IMHO.)

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

No, you're missing the point.

There can be humor in fantasy stories, but it needs to feel right, such as witty remarks.

No. I don't think I'm missing the point at all. There is no such thing as an objective "feels right." What you're describing is humor that works for you. Just like I said.

[HarryT]

There's certainly humour in Joe Abercrombie's "First Law" trilogy, which is about as dark as epic fantasy gets.