Ten books that changed the world - The Guardian

[TimW]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I think you will find that people mention religious and political books all the time. Recommendations, announcing deals, etc. -- mentioning the fact that something exists is in no way comparable to engaging in divisive religious discussion?

It's very possible to discuss number 10 and keep it on an academic basis without emotional drama. I wouldn't have a problem with doing that. However, an unmoderated discussion of the innocent question "How is the weather in your area?" could degenerate into a flame war in 10 posts (or less). Sad, but that's just the way it is. I could understand why there would be a strict line.

[AnotherCat]

I will try and tip toe through this .

Scripture is the Old and New Testaments (or either), especially if capitalised, or sacred writings or records (authority check was the Oxford English Dictionary). So its meaning is wide.

I don't know much of Tom Holland who wrote the notes to item 10, but am assuming he is the English author. I have only read his "Rubicon:..." and seen a few articles of his and my suspicion is that, unlike some of the others in the list, he has no particular activist barrow to push. His notes also do not capitalise scripture.

So, for myself, I have interpreted his claim to world changing as referring to, at least, both the Bible and the Koran (his notes cover both and he alludes to their common roots).

Looking at all ten books my view is that those covered by Helen Lewis, Paul Kingsnorth, Paul Mason and Bonnie Greer are just self-serving to their own activism rather than from a detached viewpoint (as I have alluded to already). However, that said, I think Paul Mason's The Communist Manifesto was world changing but perhaps not as important as he promotes.

I don't think I would like to compile a list of the 10 most world changing books, I think I could come up with 10 that would tie for first place . But it makes a good story for a rag.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

I will try and tip toe through this .

Scripture is the Old and New Testaments (or either), especially if capitalised, or sacred writings or records (authority check was the Oxford English Dictionary). So its meaning is wide.

I don't know much of Tom Holland who wrote the notes to item 10, but am assuming he is the English author. I have only read his "Rubicon:..." and seen a few articles of his and my suspicion is that, unlike some of the others in the list, he has no particular activist barrow to push. His notes also do not capitalise scripture.

So, for myself, I have interpreted his claim to world changing as referring to, at least, both the Bible and the Koran (his notes cover both and he alludes to their common roots).

Looking at all ten books my view is that those covered by Helen Lewis, Paul Kingsnorth, Paul Mason and Bonnie Greer are just self-serving to their own activism rather than from a detached viewpoint (as I have alluded to already). However, that said, I think Paul Mason's The Communist Manifesto was world changing but perhaps not as important as he promotes.

I don't think I would like to compile a list of the 10 most world changing books, I think I could come up with 10 that would tie for first place . But it makes a good story for a rag.

Tom Holland is a popular historian. He wrote a pretty interesting and rather controversial book on the early years of Islam, In the Shadow of the Sword.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Thank you.

While you are at it, can you restore the first half of my post? (I quoted the first quoter, but also made an unrelated observation. )

Sure. Done. I was in a hurry to get all references to the offending quote off the board.

Just to offer an opinion, I don't think that the order 1-10 was intended to suggest any ranking in terms of most "world changing" to least (out of the ten). Nothing in the write up suggests that that was the case.

Also I think that the very idea of religion was and is "world changing" irrespective of the content of any scripture of any religion.

[taosaur]

I have a quibble that hasn't come up yet: Confucius over Sun Tzu? C'mon.

[NickyWithNook]

In defense of The Second Sex, it influenced a great number of women, and was part of a change in the world, including things as much a part of everyday life as family structure. A lot of people are women. Something can be written for and influence just women and still change the world.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by NickyWithNook

In defense of The Second Sex, it influenced a great number of women, and was part of a change in the world, including things as much a part of everyday life as family structure. A lot of people are women. Something can be written for and influence just women and still change the world.

Looking through the thread, only two people mentioned that book at all:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I've never heard of the following:

The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir
A Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold
Beloved by Toni Morrison
Scripture

Unless "Scripture" is supposed, perhaps, to refer to the Judeo-Christian Bible, which would be flagrant cheating.

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

The Second Sex, Beloved and A Sand County Almanac seem to me to be of a PC selection persuasion or otherwise representing the pet favorites of the list makers rather than being based on a strong knowledge of literature, the sciences, political science, economics, etc. For example, the Second Sex and Beloved are both feminist oriented (so were the book choosers unbiased?), and who knows anything of The Sand County Almanac beyond environmental activists? They are also not well known (as HarryT has alluded to).

I would suggest that there are multitudes of books that have changed the world more than those with respect to feminism; I will swerve away from a definite nomination due to my compromised position of being a rather dated male but I see books that I would have thought have been more influential, and certainly much better known than The Second Sex.

[...]

Are you insinuating that those posts were preempted by misogynism/devaluation of women? (Sorry, just confused why you seem to feel it needs to be defended with the statement "A lot of people are women. Something can be written for and influence just women and still change the world.")

I would think at least AnotherCat went to specific lengths to explain why he believes that as a work which influenced womenit was not world-changing enough even in that area compared to far more worthy books.

I confess I know little about that topic altogether, but a constant theme of this thread is that people don't seem to believe these specific books were nearly as important in their own field or out of it, to merit being on that list.


Many, many, many books changed the world in some way. The question is, if a Top-10 list is to be meaningful, some effort must be taken to attempt, at least, to determine which are the, well, top 10.
With that in mind, why don't you tell us in what way you believe the specific existence of The Second Sex has changed the lives of women everywhere, moreso than other books of its kind, and how that changeset impacted the world enough to qualify on a Top-10 list.

[NickyWithNook]

I didn't intend to get into a huge argument, nor am I insinuating anything. I just disagree that The Second Sex isn't worthy of the list. It had a huge influence on modern feminism, and modern feminism has had a major effect on the western world.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Many, many, many books changed the world in some way. The question is, if a Top-10 list is to be meaningful, some effort must be taken to attempt, at least, to determine which are the, well, top 10.

It's perhaps worth noting that this list does not claim to be a "Top 10" list, but simply a list of 10 books that changed the world.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's perhaps worth noting that this list does not claim to be a "Top 10" list, but simply a list of 10 books that changed the world.

And as I pointed out in an earlier post the selection was influenced by selections being made by people with known activist agendas (including The Second Sex) so was also a very biased list.

Originally Posted by NickyWithNook

...A lot of people are women. ...

Really? I am drawn to wondering why you felt that needed pointing out?