EPUB3 is dead, long live EPUB3Lite...

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

I know.
But that is what they really want.
MathML is merely a way to get them closer to it.
But even with MathML they won't be satisfied.
What is really needed is a wholly separate format for academia instead of trying to bloat up a trade publishing spec.

"One ring to rule them all" never ends well for anybody.

I agree. Some things are not suited to the epub standard, and may never be. I can't imagine reading a large blueprint on an ereader or tablet, and often not that easy on any display I can afford to buy.

Of course I would have said that for cookbooks and technical books with a lot of pictures until I recently came across a few that were very well done.

Almost anything can be improved, but adding complexity can often lead to confusion, and people thinking that because it is there they should somehow use it.

I like the calibre approach of plugins. If you need it you can get it, but it if you don't then it is not there cluttering up your interface.


Helen

[Ansileran]

I'm not sure if I get the MathML point but if it allows for better mathematical formulas display, why not. As long as we are talking "books".

I can see the point of epubs supporting sounds: if I use my reader to learn a new language, it would be cool to be able to tap on the example and have it read to me. But that's belongs to the "nice and shiny new toy" features, not the required features. So if it's dropped, well, too bad, I'll just have to keep using my mp3 player to read the file... Especially if my reader has no mp3 player ^^

You probably could find an example where it would be cool to have an embedded video play on your reader, but the hardware isn't there yet. Unless epub3 is intended for tablets and computers...

I'm all for updates that allow for a better book display, the rest should be optional...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ansileran

I'm not sure if I get the MathML point but if it allows for better mathematical formulas display, why not.

"Why not" is because the MathML parser is large and complex, and portable devices have limited storage space and memory. It's using up space for an extremely specialist purpose which would only benefit a tiny proportion of readers.

You probably could find an example where it would be cool to have an embedded video play on your reader, but the hardware isn't there yet. Unless epub3 is intended for tablets and computers...

That's exactly it, and that's why embedded sound and video are supported on devices like the iPad and equivalent Android tablets.

[fjtorres]

The bulk of epub sales are (and are likey to remain, for quite a while) in the narrative text trade publishing arena. And those books neither have no need of embedded multimedia nor equations. Books that do, even in print, are in much smaller volume/much higher price markets that could be better served with a separate standard.
A modular spec would've served the industry a lot better than trying to be all things to all people.

[HarryT]

Agreed - a modular spec would be the best answer. Even better, a modular reader.

Originally Posted by HarryT

"Why not" is because the MathML parser is large and complex, and portable devices have limited storage space and memory. It's using up space for an extremely specialist purpose which would only benefit a tiny proportion of readers.

You don't have to load the MathML parser until it's required.

Advanced mathematics as a dedicated subject may be extremely specialist, but the application of various branches of mathematics is not.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

You don't have to load the MathML parser until it's required.

Advanced mathematics as a dedicated subject may be extremely specialist, but the application of various branches of mathematics is not.

The need is still very narrow.
Not worth stalling an $800M a year business over.

[WillAdams]

Right, because of course, there's no cost at all in mathematics still being regarded as ``penalty copy'' and things like newspaper headlines being rendered nonsensical by not including superscripts.

Money as a basis for making decisions is the source of all-too-many of the world's ills --- let's instead do something 'cause it's the right thing to do and will make the world a better place.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

You don't have to load the MathML parser until it's required.

Advanced mathematics as a dedicated subject may be extremely specialist, but the application of various branches of mathematics is not.

But it - and all the other "optional" parsers, such as Music XML - would still require storage space, and that too is limited.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by WillAdams

Right, because of course, there's no cost at all in mathematics still being regarded as ``penalty copy'' and things like newspaper headlines being rendered nonsensical by not including superscripts.

ePub supports superscripts perfectly acceptably as it is.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by WillAdams

Right, because of course, there's no cost at all in mathematics still being regarded as ``penalty copy'' and things like newspaper headlines being rendered nonsensical by not including superscripts.

Money as a basis for making decisions is the source of all-too-many of the world's ills --- let's instead do something 'cause it's the right thing to do and will make the world a better place.

Exactly. And standardization is often used to design thing that would not naturally occur.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The need is still very narrow.
Not worth stalling an $800M a year business over.

How big is the textbook industry? If you can't properly show equations on E-Ink devices, then they are never going to be satisfactory for reading textbooks.

Originally Posted by HarryT

But it - and all the other "optional" parsers, such as Music XML - would still require storage space, and that too is limited.

The typical ereader has several GB of non-volatile storage these days. LaTeX and AMSTeX seem to be about 200 MB, even though they provide a much more sophisticated typesetting and layout than ePub. That includes all of the fonts, including those for handling formal languages (like mathematics).

Now I'm not suggesting that TeX is a model that ereaders should aspire to. It is a bit inefficient for the current generation of ereaders, particularly since it uses multiple passes to render a document. Yet it also demonstrates that ebook standards have a long ways to go, and that they should aspire to something better than a glorified medium for novels (and certain classes of non-fiction).

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by rkomar

How big is the textbook industry? If you can't properly show equations on E-Ink devices, then they are never going to be satisfactory for reading textbooks.

Who says the textbook reading devices *have* to be the same as the cheapie paperback-class consumer readers?
Sony's upcoming big reader would be a better fit than any 6in reader because a proper academic reader needs robust annotation and note-taking, preferably supporting ink as a data type. Every attempt at using eink readers for academic ebooks has so far found them inadequate.

For that matter, who says a proper academic ebook format needs to be grafted onto a commercial trade ebook format to succeed?
A separate academic format optimized for annotation and a reader app with note management features makes more sense.

Trying to cram together two inherently different products makes as much sense as this:
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-li...oor-wax/n8625/

[Ansileran]

@fjtorres

Your link is unavailable here (in France)...

So what you are actually saying is that epub3lite makes sense for most readers (6", fiction) but you'd need epub3 for specific purposes and dedicated devices. Isn't that exactly what the point of epub3lite is?