Ditching DRM on all e-books. Could Apple do it again?

Originally Posted by cstross

(snip) Many of whom are headed by old folks who are not comfortable with this new-fangled technology (snip) as and when the elderly boardroom seat-warmers retire, a younger generation of executives who are less scared by new technology (snip)

Can we get rid of these young/old stereotypes? The Internet has been popular for almost 20 years. Personal computers have been around for almost 40 years. We are well past the point where we can claim that the old folk "are not comfortable with this new-fangled technology" because the executives who make the decisions have had decades to adapt. If age is a factor at all, it is because those "boardroom seat-warmers" have been in industry long enough to know that businesses can only operate if they have a revenue stream. Pirates don't provide that revenue stream, so something needs to be done about it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Can we get rid of these young/old stereotypes? The Internet has been popular for almost 20 years. Personal computers have been around for almost 40 years. We are well past the point where we can claim that the old folk "are not comfortable with this new-fangled technology" because the executives who make the decisions have had decades to adapt. If age is a factor at all, it is because those "boardroom seat-warmers" have been in industry long enough to know that businesses can only operate if they have a revenue stream. Pirates don't provide that revenue stream, so something needs to be done about it.

Believe it or not, but even being around since 1975 or so, the (personal) computer is still as big a mystery as it ever was, to the normal people.

You won't *believe* the number of people between the age of 20 and 30 that I encounter who haven't got the faintest idea of how a computer works.

I'm no car mechanic. Heck, I even don't have a driver's license because of my poor eyesight. Still, I know that you need gas in the car to make it run, need to refresh the oil, turn the key to start it, press the pedal to make it go (or another pedal to make it stop), and turn the wheel to make it turn. If you understand this, along with some other basics, you can drive any car.

When dealing with computers, many people don't know even such basics. Copy/Paste files? It takes ages to learn. And when the concept is finally understood, they gleefully paste 25 GB of baby pictures onto a 1GB SD-card... and of course, they don't understand why it doesn't work. I can cite many more examples.

"Using a computer" is no more than following a list of directions or actions for many people. They actually don't *understand* what they are doing; they're like dogs: "If I do this, then I get a cookie (i.e., the e-mail is sent).

This is the reason why they are so upset if there is even the slightest of changes: their action lists such as "Click the third button from the left" are messed up and they can't use the computer anymore.

It hasn't got anything to do with age; I also encounter quite some old people who are very adept at using computers. They don't use lists, they don't write anything down. Without exception, these people just *understand*.

Imagine someone driving a car like that, having to consult a list of actions each time someone wants to do something, such as "turning left", because they actually don't understand the car...

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Can we get rid of these young/old stereotypes? The Internet has been popular for almost 20 years. Personal computers have been around for almost 40 years. We are well past the point where we can claim that the old folk "are not comfortable with this new-fangled technology" because the executives who make the decisions have had decades to adapt. If age is a factor at all, it is because those "boardroom seat-warmers" have been in industry long enough to know that businesses can only operate if they have a revenue stream. Pirates don't provide that revenue stream, so something needs to be done about it.

I have no problem getting rid of the old/young stereotype. But we'd still need something to describe those in the industry who make it painfully obvious (through their own words) that they don't even have a basic understanding of the technology/culture that they want to exploit for all it's worth, yet still be free to demonize, antagonize and poo-poo its proponents ... all at the same time. Perhaps "idiot" would suffice?

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I have no problem getting rid of the old/young stereotype. But we'd still need something to describe those in the industry who make it painfully obvious (through their own words) that they don't even have a basic understanding of the technology/culture that they want to exploit for all it's worth, yet still be free to demonize, antagonize and poo-poo its proponents ... all at the same time. Perhaps "idiot" would suffice?

How about this: both cultures don't understand the other's perspective. For the most part we're consumers so we understand things from the consumer's perspective. Some of us will be cogs in a large business, but we won't be making business decisions so it is hard for us to understand their perspective. Some of us may be operating businesses, but chances are that they're so small that they play by different rules than major corporations. Again, it makes it hard for us to understand their perspective. (At least I assume that there aren't any executives from Fortune 500 companies around here.) Of course the misunderstanding extends the other way too. I'll go as far as suggesting that it isn't the technology they misunderstand, but the people who use it. For example: they are probably perfectly aware that DRM doesn't stop piracy and they are probably perfectly aware that pirates aren't their customers. They probably see DRM as a way to prevent casual copying, keeping people who would buy in the habit of buying and reducing the chances that they will start pirating. What they probably don't understand, because they're so wrapped up in protecting their own interests, is that consumers see this as an attack on their rights as consumers. Things like the doctorine of first sale, lending books to friends, reading books on another vendors' device simply doesn't register as relevant to these business people because they are focussed upon business needs rather than consumer needs.

These people aren't idiots. If they were, these companies would have collapsed a long time ago. But they are people with very different objectives and perspectives from us. They aren't monsters. They are simply doing their job.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Things like the doctorine of first sale, lending books to friends, reading books on another vendors' device simply doesn't register as relevant to these business people because they are focussed upon business needs rather than consumer needs.

As far as I can see, this is often exactly the wrong way around. If you focus on your consumer's needs, then your business will problably flourish.

Yes, you may loose some sales to pirates, and to people who copy, but chances are that you gain much more sales by making it easy and hassle-free to buy stuff.

Why spend all the money and (development) time to put DRM on your books if it can be stripped out automatically, seconds after downloading the book?

Originally Posted by Katsunami

As far as I can see, this is often exactly the wrong way around. If you focus on your consumer's needs, then your business will problably flourish.

Yes, you may loose some sales to pirates, and to people who copy, but chances are that you gain much more sales by making it easy and hassle-free to buy stuff.

Why spend all the money and (development) time to put DRM on your books if it can be stripped out automatically, seconds after downloading the book?

Like I said, that's our perspective as consumers. We could be right. We could be wrong. It's a hard truth to ascertain because it ultimately reduces to "what if".

What if Apple sold DRM free music from day one? The culture of piracy had already been established. The habit of buying music hadn't been established. Those two things means that Apple may have failed even though it was addressing consumer needs. DRM may have cut down on casual copying and established the habit of buying, because that token barrier was enough, thus creating the environment in which Apple succeeded. (Of course, Apple may have succeeded either way. We don't really know because we can't play out both scenarios in the real world.)

As for the stripping DRM bit and people pirating media, I don't think that industry cares about that stuff too much because they know that most of those people wouldn't buy anyway. Let's face it, a lot of pirates simply don't care. A lot of pirates copy more than they can use, nevermind afford. I suspect that they are more interested in preventing the average person from sharing their media with a friend or four since some of those copies may have been sales. Now how many of those average customers are going to run around stripping DRM? A few perhaps, but I doubt that many people even know it can be done.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I have no problem getting rid of the old/young stereotype. But we'd still need something to describe those in the industry who make it painfully obvious (through their own words) that they don't even have a basic understanding of the technology/culture that they want to exploit for all it's worth, yet still be free to demonize, antagonize and poo-poo its proponents ... all at the same time. Perhaps "idiot" would suffice?

How large is your business? How many millions in revenue?

*Of course* the industry understands this. They are putting out the e-books and making a decent amount of profit doing so. They know 100 times more about this stuff than a random internet commenter, and have spent a hell of a lot more time studying it.

They do know how their business has done with DRM. It's done pretty well; they've sold millions of books. Most people don't seem to really care about DRM, and it's hardly the inconvenience with e-books that it was with mP3s.

What BPHs don't know is whether they will make any more money if they sell books without DRM. They might...but they might not. But they have billions of dollars riding on this decision, and they have to be very careful. I don't have that much at risk, and neither does anyone else posting on this board, I suspect.

But they are not idiots. What they are is in uncharted territory.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

*Of course* the industry understands this. They are putting out the e-books and making a decent amount of profit doing so. They know 100 times more about this stuff than a random internet commenter, and have spent a hell of a lot more time studying it.

You're talking strictly technology here? The boardroom guys at big publishing firms have a better grasp on ebook technologies than I do? The guts of all the various formats, the nuts and bolts of how DRM is applied/removed, how it can and can't can't be circumvented? Those big-wig PUBLISHERS ultimately calling the shots in the BOOK industry are closet technology savants that could smoke me in a conversation about how all the various tech interacts to make ebooks and DRM happen? That's what you're saying? I can't begin to count the ways I doubt that.

I'm not even dwelling on just the DRM issue guys. I'm talking about ebooks/ereaders/ereading in general. They've embraced the money generated from them while holding them at arms length like baby with stinky diaper otherwise. I'm sticking with idiots. You don't have to agree. Or like it.

[theinfamousj]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Is there a smartphone, tablet, or desktop that Kindle software doesn't run on? Hell, they even have a Web reader. They can safely ignore other e-ink formats, because they've got software for almost any device imaginable.

Yes! There is! The Nokia E-series smart phones for one. I had an E71 and have currently upgraded to an E72 (there is also the TMo specific E73 "Mode"). I have to run Mobipocket reader and strip DRM just to read my Kindle books that I bought and paid for on my phone.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by theinfamousj

Yes! There is! The Nokia E-series smart phones for one. I had an E71 and have currently upgraded to an E72 (there is also the TMo specific E73 "Mode"). I have to run Mobipocket reader and strip DRM just to read my Kindle books that I bought and paid for on my phone.

This might be of use for you and other Symbian users, although it sounds like it might still need some work...
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/flow/...n_Kindle_e.php

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic

Or, could Apple step in and pressure the publishing industry to go completely DRM-free, the same way they did when renegotiating deals with the big music labels? Kirk McElhearn of Macworld thinks there is a chance, also for Apple:

Not a chance.

Sales of music are managed by the RIAA, which has nice equivalent-terms contracts with studios, which have nice equivalent-terms (horrifically exploitative, but we don't need to go into that here) contracts with the creators of the music. The RIAA can decide "we will sell music without DRM because sales will be awesome that way," and the studios and, more relevant, bands will have to cope with that decision.

There is no equivalent organization in publishing. Every author, sometimes every book, has a separate contract. Publishers offer standard terms to beginning and mid-list authors, but even in today's "take it or leave it" setting, there's room for a bit of negotiation. And older contracts have drastically varied terms about ebooks; there's no standard set of rights ceded to the publisher.

If an author decides that her books are not selling because they're being pirated, because the publisher has released them without DRM, she may have grounds to sue. She may have grounds to insist that's a breach of contract, depending on the terms of her contract.

Is it likely to hold up? Hell, no. If three hundred authors sue in separate courts over similar lines of logic, is one of them likely to hold up? Maybe. And one would set the precedent for others. (Most likely, IMHNALO: author sues for lost wages, not hoping to get any wages, but hoping to get the contract nullified so she can take back control of her book(s) and sell them on her own.)

Publishers don't want to do anything that opens them up for hundreds of individual lawsuits from authors. They *really* don't want to do anything that authors might use as a wedge to regain control of their works.

[Sregener]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Believe it or not, but even being around since 1975 or so, the (personal) computer is still as big a mystery as it ever was, to the normal people.

I grew up in the era of the personal computer (1980s.) I cut my teeth on a Commodore 64 and then moved on to the very first IBM PS/2 that came with 2 (!) 3.5" floppy drives. I read computer manuals for fun. When I got a new game or program, I would read the entire manual at least once before inserting the disk into the computer.

In the 1990s, I worked in computer support. Some of my peers were people who hadn't started using a computer until Windows 3.1. They knew how to work with a graphical interface, but they had no clue what was going on behind the scenes. Editing configuration files was foreign to them. Copying files from a command line was impossible. It was difficult to understand how people could have learned how to use computers so well and had no idea how to do anything that didn't have pretty buttons on the screen to click.

It took me a couple years to adjust to the mentality of "just Google it." I still find myself using a physical phone book on occasion. I am a dinosaur, and I am not even old enough to receive AARP promotional material.

The publishers aren't slow in the sense that they don't understand how to adopt the new technology. They are slow in that they don't want to give away their futures without understanding what they are doing. In other words, they are conservatives - they wish to maintain things as they are.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Sregener

When I got a new game or program, I would read the entire manual at least once before inserting the disk into the computer.

If people would do this with any device, not only computer software, then they'd know what they are doing.

Mom using a mobile (dumb)phone:
*Beep*
WHY DOESN'T IT WORK?
*BEEP BEEP BEEP*
IT DOENS'T WORK!!
*BEEEEEEEP!*
**** STUPID...**** WHY MUST EVERYTHING BE SO DIFFICULT?! **** NJJAAAAARGHHH! (Or some other sort of incoherent rant.)

*Me grab Le Phone*
*Hits button*
*BEEP*
Phone says: "Toetsen geblokkeerd." ("Keyboard locked.")
*Slides lock switch to OFF position*

"Here you go, it works."

Mom: "How'd you fix that?"
Me: "By reading what it says on the screen."

I think I'll have my mom stick to paper books. Buying and downloading books, getting DRM off, getting them onto the e-reader, it'll all come down to me. Even then, I have a feeling that she won't actually understand an e-reader.

With regard to electrical devices she doesn't understand anything if it has more buttons than ON and OFF. It's not because she's stupid, but because she has an utter lack of interest in anything that's even somewhat technical, and she's impatient at that, so don't even think about her reading a manual.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Can we get rid of these young/old stereotypes? The Internet has been popular for almost 20 years. Personal computers have been around for almost 40 years. We are well past the point where we can claim that the old folk "are not comfortable with this new-fangled technology" because the executives who make the decisions have had decades to adapt. If age is a factor at all, it is because those "boardroom seat-warmers" have been in industry long enough to know that businesses can only operate if they have a revenue stream. Pirates don't provide that revenue stream, so something needs to be done about it.

Like not bothering your customers with drm.

[Jessica Lares]

Music is DRM-free because it was apparent that people wanted to listen it in whatever way they wanted to. You can put it on your phone, you can put it on an iPod, you can listen on a computer, etc, etc. For ME personally, the biggest issue with music is that it QUICKLY becomes out-of-print. Singles that came out six months ago can no longer be purchased via iTunes, and there goes a loss of b-sides I'll probably never find again unless I find a used copy of a CD print that someone's tossing out. And I really don't want to expand my CD collection anymore at this point.

There are always going to be people that will end up paying $200 to go to a concert after downloading pirated music from that artist/band. There's also going to be that chance that merchandise gets bought too. The airplay and streaming royalties help a lot too. Music is sociable and word-of-mouth helps to strengthen the fan base and bring those customers that are willing to still pay for a song or album.

There is no business strategy to selling books other than to sell books. If the book wasn't popular to begin with, they aren't going to make the movie. And the same thing goes for merchandise. Unless someone that had the power to make things happen, REALLY liked it.

Our generation has the thinking that "labels are bad" and that they're ripping money off of deserving clients. Having DRM-less books would only lead people to start applying that thinking to publishers. It would also destroy the textbook industry because it would be easy enough to set up a server in a college/university and secretly share materials and save students THOUSANDS every year.

I think it's perfectly fine to want to read your ebooks on whatever reader and screen you want, but it's not okay that the general public will see this as an easy way to get every bestseller in the last 50 years in an easy to download torrent.

And yes, I have torrented textbooks. Only a few though. This last semester our teacher showed us some stuff from a book she was using in another class, so I decided to check it out since it looked interesting (it had multiple editions, and it was one of the really old ones anyway). That and a PDF copy of the textbook I used a few years ago. I sent that to a friend to let her have a look at how they were teaching us the same subject she was about to take.

I would never torrent a textbook just to not have to pay to use it for the entire semester though.