any opinions on the effectiveness of KDP Select?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

I will PM you.

Well...if the point is that I'm incorrect--or, rather, that my experience and observation is incorrect, and authors are indeed happy to help other authors, and are doing so cheerfully on this other forum then...why not simply post it here? Not to be combative at all; but if the gist is, it is a "community," of people helping each other, then why would you PM it rather than post it here for the benefit of all the other authors seeking precisely that type of assistance?

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Gregg Bell

You really DO help people. And it IS appreciated by the countless people you help. People like me! Thanks Hitch!

Gregg:

You're quite kind, but I'm not an author. ;-)

Hitch

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well...if the point is that I'm incorrect--or, rather, that my experience and observation is incorrect, and authors are indeed happy to help other authors, and are doing so cheerfully on this other forum then...why not simply post it here? Not to be combative at all; but if the gist is, it is a "community," of people helping each other, then why would you PM it rather than post it here for the benefit of all the other authors seeking precisely that type of assistance?

Hitch

Because, frankly, its rude to post links to drive traffic AWAY from a forum your on to another forum. At least, that is my opinion on it.

And the point is not that you are incorrect, just that my experience is difference then yours.

[gmw]

I wonder if there is, as a gross generalisation, also a difference between authors that have managed to publish from authors that haven't yet made that step. It seems to me that many unpublished writers still think there are secrets to success, and so they tend to guard what they think are "secrets" more than those that have since worked out that that it's all an illusion. There is education, there is hard work, there is talent, there is luck and there is also money, but as far as I can tell there are no secrets.

Unlike the typical business, authors aren't really in direct competition with each other, or not to any significant extent. (Yes: there is a limited number of books that people can buy, there can perhaps be some advantage in trying to keep the slush pile down, but it's not quite the same thing as a GM vs Ford comparison.) Authors are more often in competition with themselves.

My experience, like VydorScope's, is that writers in general seem very happy to speak of their experiences. In fact, in more cynical moments while browsing the Internet, I've sometimes thought that many writers have more to say about writing than is perhaps a good thing. Not from a competition perspective, but from the perspective that the audience for such sites become other writers rather than readers.

[BeccaPrice]

thank you

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by gmw

I wonder if there is, as a gross generalisation, also a difference between authors that have managed to publish from authors that haven't yet made that step. It seems to me that many unpublished writers still think there are secrets to success, and so they tend to guard what they think are "secrets" more than those that have since worked out that that it's all an illusion. There is education, there is hard work, there is talent, there is luck and there is also money, but as far as I can tell there are no secrets.

Unlike the typical business, authors aren't really in direct competition with each other, or not to any significant extent. (Yes: there is a limited number of books that people can buy, there can perhaps be some advantage in trying to keep the slush pile down, but it's not quite the same thing as a GM vs Ford comparison.) Authors are more often in competition with themselves.

My experience, like VydorScope's, is that writers in general seem very happy to speak of their experiences. In fact, in more cynical moments while browsing the Internet, I've sometimes thought that many writers have more to say about writing than is perhaps a good thing. Not from a competition perspective, but from the perspective that the audience for such sites become other writers rather than readers.

Y'know: I spent 40 minutes writing a reply to this, and realized, it's fruitless. I'd be fascinated, however, to hear why, exactly, publishing is somehow "different' than the car analogy. What is the difference, precisely? Why isn't Author A in competition with Author B for that buyer's $3.99?

@VydorScope:

The people on this forum put links to blogs, other forums, websites, their BOOKS, Smashwords, Amazon, etc., all day long, particularly in their signatures, sans a second thought. Personally, I think making a distinction about a "forum" as opposed to any other type of CMS seems pretty slim. I'd be interested in you PM'ing me the forum that you find so helpful, because I'd love to share it with my authors and put it in my Resources, to help other authors.

Hitch

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Y'know: I spent 40 minutes writing a reply to this, and realized, it's fruitless. I'd be fascinated, however, to hear why, exactly, publishing is somehow "different' than the car analogy. What is the difference, precisely? Why isn't Author A in competition with Author B for that buyer's $3.99?

Hitch

It is not as clean as that. If I buy a new car, that takes me out of the market for years. If I buy a book that takes me out of the market for days. Which means I could easily GMWs books and author's books. I would only buy one car.

Every industry has its own dynamics. There is overlap in the basics, but it is only loosely applied. For example I work in higher education, and we constantly work with the competition to help each other out. It is normal for the education industry.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

It is not as clean as that. If I buy a new car, that takes me out of the market for years. If I buy a book that takes me out of the market for days. Which means I could easily GMWs books and author's books. I would only buy one car.

Every industry has its own dynamics. There is overlap in the basics, but it is only loosely applied. For example I work in higher education, and we constantly work with the competition to help each other out. It is normal for the education industry.

If the entire argument is that it's about price--that people can buy more books than cars, sure, that's inarguably true. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a fight over that $3.99 or what-have-you. When it comes to legacy-pubbed titles, you better believe that I routinely make decisions as to where I'm spending that $9.99 for a Kindle book. It absolutely is a choice of "this book" versus "that book." Therefore, I say that regardless of the size of the purchase, it's still a sale that gets made versus one that doesn't. I don't think that the time argument plays (that you will have "a" car for X years, thus taking you out of the car market). That's built in to the price of the car, just as the value of a one-time short-term enjoyment is built into the value of a book or a DVD. {shrug}.

I do, think, however, that authors don't like to think of their work this way. I believe that they prefer to think of writing as art, not commerce, and thus don't want to think of their sales or their competitor's sales as a zero-sum game. And, if the average book-buyer buys, say, 100 books a year, I suppose that it's not quite "zero-sum." But I don't believe that the competition is one iota less fierce, even if it's not overt; if anything, given the gigantic slush pile, it should be even fiercer, as there are more choices to which the potential buyer may be attracted. I feel that thinking about it in any other way is just illusory. A nice illusion, sure; but illusory. Otherwise, everyone would be posting their books for free on SW, Scribd, here on the MR library, and their blogs, and not putting them up for SALE. Once you put a book up for sale, it's not art--it's commerce; you're an entrepreneur, and you're selling a product. A publisher, not a "writer" any longer. My experience is that the successful authors that come through our place either a) learned this during their time, and then adopted that mindset, or, b) had that mindset in the first place, which is partly why they are successful. I don't know which came first--chicken, egg--but I do know it's pretty damned consistent.

That's my $.02.

[VydorScope]

Yes, my books are for sale which makes me a business man. I use my profits to buy things and pay bills so I have a vested interest in making a profit. If I did not, I agree my books would all be free.

I am just saying the authors who sell enough to make a living at it (my personal definition of success) that I have talked to have been more then happy to help. That is my experience, which differs from yours. In any field there are a range of personalities. Your opinions are jaded by those you have met, and my are jaded by the ones I have met.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Y'know: I spent 40 minutes writing a reply to this, and realized, it's fruitless. I'd be fascinated, however, to hear why, exactly, publishing is somehow "different' than the car analogy. What is the difference, precisely? Why isn't Author A in competition with Author B for that buyer's $3.99?[...]

Because the equation is not as simple as it is for cars (not that it is necessarily simple for cars either).

VydorScope touched on the obvious point: most people only buy one car and then they don't even go car shopping again for years. By that time there's a good chance the first car is now out of style and I'm trying to sell the next edition. Lose to the competition and you've lost that sale forever. With books, especially the often less expensive Indie publications selling for a few dollars, a person may well decide to buy both, or if they don't, Author A may lose to Author B today, only to win against Author C next week. AND in another year to two time, Author A may win against Author D with book 2, and as a result also gain a sale of book 1 (something that is very unlikely with cars).

Another point is that Car Manufacturer A is only in competition with a handful of others. Whereas Author A is not only in competition with Author B, but also with every other author that has ever published a book in a similar genre. Collectors of vintage cars are relatively rare, readers of classic books are very common. In some respects this makes the competition worse, but it also makes it much less direct, and much less of a personal "I must not tell Author B my secrets".

And a third point is that there really are secrets in manufacturing - things that Manufacturer A may know or be wanting to try that Manufacturer B doesn't even guess at. About the only "secret" an author may have is their idea for a plot or character - and many can be very protective of that - BUT even in that regard it is unlikely to be truly original (stories have been told for ... who knows how long.), AND every author would create a different result from the same beginnings anyway. There is very little that is completely new. What some see as secrets to success in marketing etc. are rarely secrets. Sometimes it is simply timing and luck. The main things that will make a difference between Author A and Author B are not secrets, and I think most published authors recognise that.