Out of print books - Page 3

crich70 · 08-13-2012, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Moderating decisions are a private matter between the moderating team and the person involved. They are never discussed publicly.

Thank you.

I'll admit to curiosity too though I had a feeling that such would be a private matter between the mods and the member who was banned so didn't add my query. I had a feeling that such a message would be forthcoming at some point.

TimW · 08-13-2012, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crich70

I'll admit to curiosity too though I had a feeling that such would be a private matter between the mods and the member who was banned so didn't add my query. I had a feeling that such a message would be forthcoming at some point.

Exactly right. As they say, curiosity killed Schrodinger's cat...or did it?

goldshirt9 · 08-13-2012, 10:19 AM

If a book was never to be "published" as an e book , would it would be ethically wrong to copy for personal use ?

mr ploppy · 08-13-2012, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I suspect that it might be considered illegal, but only a civil offence, not a criminal one.

i.e. The copyright owner could sue you if they found out and thought it worth doing, but the police wouldn't be interested.

However! I am not a lawyer! For real legal advice you'd need to ask (& pay) a lawyer.

In the UK and several other countires it would be classed as assisting copyright infringement for commercial gain, which would make it a police matter. Dawn raids by armed police are not unheard of in cases like that. And if they were found to be doing it with any American books they could be extradited to stand trial there.

Jozawun · 08-13-2012, 06:32 PM

I am interested in pdurrant's view that it would be ethical to copy the book if you purchased it, but not if you borrowed it from a library.
What is the ethical difference, given that you have actually paid for it in both cases?

elcreative · 08-13-2012, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozawun

I am interested in pdurrant's view that it would be ethical to copy the book if you purchased it, but not if you borrowed it from a library.
What is the ethical difference, given that you have actually paid for it in both cases?

If you purchase it then you own it... if it's a library book then you are only borrowing it as the actual owner is the library... and that doesn't make you the owner just because your payments help to support the library...

tompe · 08-13-2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elcreative

If you purchase it then you own it... if it's a library book then you are only borrowing it as the actual owner is the library... and that doesn't make you the owner just because your payments help to support the library...

Yes, but owning a thing does not automatically give you an ethical right to copy it. Actually there is not restriction of copying in the natural case. So possession is enough for being able to copy a thing ethically. And we have possession in both these cases.

khalleron · 08-13-2012, 07:45 PM

The US Supreme court has supported time- and format-shifting in several court cases (usually involving videos rather than books). That's why we even have video recorders.

The DMCA changed much of that, but since the original book is not digital, the DMCA would not apply.

Of course, the OP does not own a valid copy of the work, so the format-shifting cases would not apply, either.

So it's probably legal to copy a book one owns, for one's own use. It may even be legal to have someone else do it, provided one retains the original or it is destroyed. But since there have been no actual court rulings, this is all very much a legal gray area. However, here in America, we generally go by 'everything not forbidden is allowed.'

In either case, the police are unlikely to come knocking as long as you do not distribute the work. Putting it on the Internet unless you're the rights holder would be a big no-no both ethically and legally.

Jozawun · 08-13-2012, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elcreative

If you purchase it then you own it... if it's a library book then you are only borrowing it as the actual owner is the library... and that doesn't make you the owner just because your payments help to support the library...

If ownership is the key factor, rather than direct or indirect purchase, then you get some odd results.
First, what of a person who becomes the legal owner of a stolen book by buying it at a market overt?
Second, what of a person who becomes the legal owner of a book gifted to him by a person who originally purchased it legally, and first used and copied it for his own purposes before passing it on?

HansTWN · 08-13-2012, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozawun

If ownership is the key factor, rather than direct or indirect purchase, then you get some odd results.
First, what of a person who becomes the legal owner of a stolen book by buying it at a market overt?
Second, what of a person who becomes the legal owner of a book gifted to him by a person who originally purchased it legally, and first used and copied it for his own purposes before passing it on?

You can't become legal owner of stolen goods, even if you purchase them from the thief. The only exception to this rule is cash. If someone buys something from you with stolen cash the cash is still yours.

teh603 · 08-13-2012, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HansTWN

You can't become legal owner of stolen goods, even if you purchase them from the thief. The only exception to this rule is cash. If someone buys something from you with stolen cash the cash is still yours.

Copyright infringement isn't theft, unless someone changed the heck out of IP law over the past few days.

HansTWN · 08-13-2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teh603

Copyright infringement isn't theft, unless someone changed the heck out of IP law over the past few days.

His example was about a stolen pbook, not an ebook.

Jozawun · 08-13-2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HansTWN

You can't become legal owner of stolen goods, even if you purchase them from the thief. The only exception to this rule is cash. If someone buys something from you with stolen cash the cash is still yours.

This is not correct. You can, to cite only one exception, become legal owner under the law of market overt, which still applies in some jurisdictions.

elcreative · 08-13-2012, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozawun

If ownership is the key factor, rather than direct or indirect purchase, then you get some odd results.
First, what of a person who becomes the legal owner of a stolen book by buying it at a market overt?
Second, what of a person who becomes the legal owner of a book gifted to him by a person who originally purchased it legally, and first used and copied it for his own purposes before passing it on?

In your second example, the keeping of a copy is the problem... if you buy a book, read it and give it to someone then no problem but giving and retaining a copy is both ethically wrong and a copyright infringement either civilly or criminally illegal depending on local laws...

khalleron · 08-13-2012, 11:53 PM

If you knowingly buy stolen goods, then the ethics of copyright are probably not going to keep you awake at night.

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08-13-2012, 10:19 AM	#33
goldshirt9 Nameless Being	If a book was never to be "published" as an e book , would it would be ethically wrong to copy for personal use ?

08-13-2012, 06:32 PM	#35
Jozawun Fanatic Posts: 519 Karma: 2693434 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Australia Device: Cybook Gen 3, Pocketbook 902, Sony 650	I am interested in pdurrant's view that it *would* be ethical to copy the book if you purchased it, but *not* if you borrowed it from a library. What is the ethical difference, given that you have actually paid for it in both cases?

08-13-2012, 07:45 PM	#38
khalleron Kate Posts: 1,700 Karma: 3605799 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Oregon, United States Device: MeeBook, Kobo Libra Colour	The US Supreme court has supported time- and format-shifting in several court cases (usually involving videos rather than books). That's why we even have video recorders. The DMCA changed much of that, but since the original book is not digital, the DMCA would not apply. Of course, the OP does not own a valid copy of the work, so the format-shifting cases would not apply, either. So it's probably legal to copy a book one owns, for one's own use. It may even be legal to have someone else do it, provided one retains the original or it is destroyed. But since there have been no actual court rulings, this is all very much a legal gray area. However, here in America, we generally go by 'everything not forbidden is allowed.' In either case, the police are unlikely to come knocking as long as you do not distribute the work. Putting it on the Internet unless you're the rights holder would be a big no-no both ethically and legally.

08-13-2012, 11:53 PM	#45
khalleron Kate Posts: 1,700 Karma: 3605799 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Oregon, United States Device: MeeBook, Kobo Libra Colour	If you knowingly buy stolen goods, then the ethics of copyright are probably not going to keep you awake at night.

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