Publishers STILL doing their best to screw the libraries?

[DarkScribe]

I can envisage a system whereby a loyalty component is introduced to sales. Buy one (eBook) by an author or from a publisher and it costs full retail. With each subsequent purchase there is a reduction in cost. It would benefit both readers and writer/publishers.

If applied to library books, they could use something like the iTunes system where they make offers or suggestions based on your history. When you log onto Amazon or whoever your preferred retailer is, it would say: "You have read x number of books by Xxxxxx, and as a fan of this writer/series, we can offer you x% discount on new titles not yet available for lending.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by BelleZora

The Kootenai County (Idaho) library system has Ace Atkins' Lullaby in ebook so you might might want to look again on that one.

From what I can see they have the audiobook which isn't put out by Penguin (it's done by Books On Tape), not the ebook which is done by Penguin/Putnam.

[QuantumIguana]

It would be no easier to create a square circle than to create a DRM that can't be broken. The biggest problem is that as long as books are read with eyes, there will always be a way around DRM.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I thought that libraries are able to buy X copies of an eBook and then lend out "X" copies at the same time already. Is this not the case? How else do they manage to have several copies available on many ebooks?

Whether or not they're able to do that, I don't know. The way it typically works today though is that they don't buy X eBooks and lend them out based on the first sale doctrine, like they do for pBooks. They make licensing agreements with the Publisher in order to obtain permission to lend out X copies.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

This doesn't apply to your apartment. And housing is, in most climates, a lot more vital than reading.

If I own an apartment/house, I'm legally not allowed to rent/sell it?

People here keep on blaming the publishers for living in the past. Well, part of the past is that books were sold and not leased.

I fail to see a moral reason why selling is better than leasing.

The problem is that they're trying to both sell AND lease them at the same time. They want it to be considered a sale when it benefits them, but they also want to apply terms of a lease when those benefit them as well. They certainly advertise and charge you like it's a sale, but then after the fact try to consider it a lease when it comes to consumer rights.

Now, I do see a practical problem in that the commonly used DRM schemes are easily broken. Even moderators do it! Necessity is truly the mother of invention, and, one day, I predict, someone will invent the better DRM needed to perfect the model of book leasing.

It is fundamentally impossible to invent a DRM that can't be broken but at the same time allow legitimate customers access to the content.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

It is fundamentally impossible to invent a DRM that can't be broken but at the same time allow legitimate customers access to the content.

There is one way. I call it the Book Appreciation Chair. The book would be delivered to the readers brain directly through implanted electrodes. The reader would be strapped down to the chair to prevent them from typing out the book. The reader would also have a ball gag in their mouth to prevent them from reciting the book into an audio recorder.

[gweeks]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

There is one way. I call it the Book Appreciation Chair. The book would be delivered to the readers brain directly through implanted electrodes. The reader would be strapped down to the chair to prevent them from typing out the book. The reader would also have a ball gag in their mouth to prevent them from reciting the book into an audio recorder.

All they have to do is memorize it. There are people who can. If nothing else, in short pieces.

Greg Weeks

[plib]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

This doesn't apply to your apartment. And housing is, in most climates, a lot more vital than reading.

People here keep on blaming the publishers for living in the past. Well, part of the past is that books were sold and not leased.

I fail to see a moral reason why selling is better than leasing.

OK. I'll lease you an apartment for the same price as it would cost you to buy it, let's say $500K. You're OK with that? Good.

Oh, maybe I forgot to mention. In 26 weeks you have to pay me another $500K, or you can't use the apartment any more.

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

The majority of sales are made within the first year or two. Especially for Bestsellers. I would go so far as to say that the majoriy of Paper books, both fiction and non-fiction are not even being printed and sold 20 years after initial publication.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it makes a difference in the long term. After all, the library is going to have to purchase an equivalent number of copies either may they be lending ebooks or pbooks. That is especially true for popular titles since libraries don't have to replace worn or lost copies as the popularity of the book declines.

And of course the power is still in the hands of the buyer. Just don't buy the product if you don't like the terms.

For the most part, that is what I do. However, I also realize that there is no such thing as a free market unless there are property rights. Authors should have certain property rights (i.e. copyrights) and authors extend those rights to the publisher. That is, in my opinion, entirely fair. However, the buyer also needs property rights. It is wonderful to claim that the buyer can exert pressure on the market by refusing to purchase a product when they don't like the terms. Unfortunately, we also know that the free market tends to consolidate property rights into the hands of a few. When that happens, the buyer loses control. When the buyer loses control, the free market ceases to exist.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

It is fundamentally impossible to invent a DRM that can't be broken but at the same time allow legitimate customers access to the content.

People can take photos of the page views and then either turn them into pdf's or run them through a character recognition program. But that takes a while to do and has imperfect results. Such piracy might not start until the book had been on the market for a while, and many potential downloaders would reject the book due to quality issues.

There perhaps is more to it than that. It may be impossible to make bulletproof DRM with existing hardware. Perhaps it will have to wait until continuous fast internet access is a given for virtually all hand-held devices. Or maybe digital watermarking is the cure. Stay tuned.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

If I own an apartment/house, I'm legally not allowed to rent/sell it?

Of course you are. The publishers own books/periodicals, and are legally allowed to rent/sell, their choice. If you don't like the terms they are offering (and I hardly ever like them), you have free options of varying convenience, up to and including interlibrary loan*.

What happens when you rent the apartment and someone acts like you had sold it? You sue for your losses, and, in most countries, for your lawyer's bill as well.

______________________________
* This assumes you have interlibrary loan in your country. If I thought you didn't, I would approach this post differently.

[BelleZora]

Originally Posted by dkperez

Interesting. I just checked Overdrive again, and the book is still only shown as being at "bookstore" in ebook format. It's available as mp3 or wma at libraries. Is Overdrive incorrect? is there a different source through which the library may have gotten the ebook?

You're right. Sorry. Just checked again and it is in audio.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The problem is that they're trying to both sell AND lease them at the same time. They want it to be considered a sale when it benefits them, but they also want to apply terms of a lease when those benefit them as well. They certainly advertise and charge you like it's a sale, but then after the fact try to consider it a lease when it comes to consumer rights.

Some bookstores make it extremely clear. Eg, Amazon say this:

Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Other Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider.

(emphasis mine). It really couldn't be stated any more clearly.

It is fundamentally impossible to invent a DRM that can't be broken but at the same time allow legitimate customers access to the content.

But you can have DRM that consumers have no reason to break. Eg, DVDs have DRM, but very few people feel the need to break it because you can play any DVD in any DVD player.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

People can take photos of the page views and then either turn them into pdf's or run them through a character recognition program. But that takes a while to do and has imperfect results. Such piracy might not start until the book had been on the market for a while, and many potential downloaders would reject the book due to quality issues.

Currently published books already often have errors in them. Having to OCR the book would delay it reaching the pirate sites by a matter of minutes. If the book is in paper, it can be scanned, OCRed and on the pirate sites in a matter of minutes.

Even if there were an uncrackable DRM (about as likely as a square circle), it would be easily circumvented. All you would need would be an e-reader application for the computer. You set up a script which turns the page, takes a screen shot, and runs it through the OCR. You come back in a couple hours, and the book is ready.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But you can have DRM that consumers have no reason to break. Eg, DVDs have DRM, but very few people feel the need to break it because you can play any DVD in any DVD player.

Um, DVD DRM was extensively subverted, precisely because you couldn't play any DVD in any DVD player.
UK High street shops (Woolworths, for example) were selling DVD players complete with printed out instructions on how to disable the region locking so that people could play the cheaper US DVDs.

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Some bookstores make it extremely clear. Eg, Amazon say this:

[excerpted fine print buried in website]

(emphasis mine). It really couldn't be stated any more clearly.

Like Shaggy said:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The problem is that they're trying to both sell AND lease them at the same time. They want it to be considered a sale when it benefits them, but they also want to apply terms of a lease when those benefit them as well. They certainly advertise and charge you like it's a sale, but then after the fact try to consider it a lease when it comes to consumer rights.