Word wrap in the forum [closed] - Page 3

doctorow · 11-10-2007, 02:27 PM

Since you're already talking about reflowable: I have serious problems with the formatting of your posts, Bowerbird. My eyes aren't the best anymore, hence I need to increase my browser's font-size.

Take a look at the attached screenshot what happens to your posts.

Please let the browser decide when to start a new line.

bowerbird · 11-10-2007, 07:01 PM

doctorow said:
> Take a look

just widen the window.

-bowerbird

mogui · 11-10-2007, 08:59 PM

Just as we have freedom of output, we have freedom of input. Though masturbation is not illegal in most countries now, I prefer to write for the widest possible audience. When I design a web page, I like the text to flow. If there is a reason for making it cellular, I use a table. If it is code or verse, I mark it so so the browser won't flow it.

But, Bowerbird, I will continue to read your stuff, because you have something to say, and it is interesting. Keep on truckin'

doctorow · 11-10-2007, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowerbird

just widen the window.

Thanks for the suggestion. But I use the fixed-style layout, and this is the max width you see above.

I read your earlier posts, yet I fail to understand why you (the only person on this board with over 10'000 members) insist on adding manual line breaks. In fact, I have never seen anyone else doing this on any other forum for good reason.

NatCh · 11-11-2007, 12:19 AM

Actually, I find the manually broken lines only mildly annoying myself: I'd rather the weren't so, but whatever.

Clearly they're important for some reason, because it takes extra trouble to do.

@bowerbird: re: PDFs -- I agree with you on how the ease of generation has affected/sponsored PDF ubiquity, it's been kind of a building cycle. Incidentally, you should check out Hadrien's Feedbooks site, it generates PDF files on the fly in just the way you're describing, in several preset sizes, plus a customizable one. I think he uses LaTex on the backside ....

I also agree that PDF is one of the best conceived formats extant and marvelous for its designed purpose. That purpose just isn't all that well suited for e-books so its performance there is mediocre, requiring the specific formatting you refer to in order to really work well.

But with DE and epub, we have a situation where Adobe's acumen/ruthlessness is now getting behind a format that is much better suited for e-booksn and a number of e-book sellers and e-reading devices have expressly announced plans to support it. All of which could be very exciting indeed.

If we get a situation where a standard e-reading emerges then suddenly all e-books and all e-readers can be inter-compatible, and we can then focus on getting that standard format refined instead of spening a lot of effort trying to get a standard in the first place.

Mayhaps I dream, but it's a pleasant dream.

bowerbird · 11-11-2007, 12:42 AM

doctorow said:
> I use the fixed-style layout, and this is the max width

you could change to the liquid layout. or ask the designer of this site to
change the underlying code that limits the column to that width, even for
those of us (including you and i) who have monitors that'd go much wider.
or you can increase the font-size just a little bit more, so each of my lines
would fill out _two_ complete lines on your screen. or perhaps change to
another font, with different metrics, most particularly a "narrow" variant...
you might even make a feature request to the programmers of the software
used in this forum to code a routine that would automatically unwrap lines.
(it's easy enough to do; if they have questions about it, i can answer 'em.)
or you could just live with the chopped lines, though i agree they are ugly...

and it's very interesting, because -- in the screenshot that you showed us --
the lines _would_have_worked_ if they'd only have been a little bit shorter.
but most people are complaining because the lines are already _too_short_.
ironic, 'eh?

> yet I fail to understand why you

as i've said before, it's my form of self-expression. i'm sorry if you don't like it.
if i was writing posts to please you, i'd change. but i'm not. sorry about that...
fortunately, there's nothing compelling you to read my posts. indeed, you can
even ignore them completely -- have 'em turned into whitespace -- by merely
setting a parameter in your options. or, you know, you can just skip over them.
because of my formatting, it's easy to pick 'em out, even from across the room.
it won't hurt my feelings if you don't read my posts because of the formatting...
i promise...

-bowerbird

JSWolf · 11-11-2007, 01:03 AM

But I really don't care if your posts can be seen across the room. That is one really silly reason for taking the time to annoy others. As you can see, someone who has the need to increase the font size has your posts looking really nasty because you refuse to be a nice person and just do it so the forum handles the line wrapping. I'm sorry, but your reasoning is inexcusable. Because of your formatting, you make your posts look not nice to someone who should have your posts look fine. Why do you insist on doing it in a way that does bother others? Do you like to annoy people on purpose? Do you like people seeing your posts and skipping them because they don't like they way they look and therefore do not want to read them? Do your words have so little meaning that this is OK to you?

bowerbird · 11-11-2007, 01:55 AM

jon, i've been writing this way for over 15 years now.
hundreds of thousands of words, all over cyberspace.
if you think i am going to change now, you are wrong.
it's just that simple. so you really need to give it up...

-bowerbird

bowerbird · 11-11-2007, 02:03 AM

> Incidentally, you should check out Hadrien's Feedbooks site

oh, i'm _quite_ familiar with hadrien's site. :+)

> it generates PDF files on the fly in just the way you're describing,
> in several preset sizes, plus a customizable one.

well, very much like the way i'm describing. but not exactly.

for instance, you can choose the font that's used, but only from
a list of a dozen or so. they are great fonts, and that is a range,
certainly enough to make you feel like you did _have_ a choice...

but if your favorite font in the world -- georgia?, futura?, verdana?,
optima?, tahoma?, lucida grande?, baskerville?, eurostyle?, caslon?,
bodoni book?, bookman?, bembo?, hoefler?, american typewriter?,
gill sans?, stone sans?, comic sans?, benguiat? -- is not on the list...
well, it's not on the list...

hadrien also lets you control the margins, which is great, and even
the _linespacing_, which i think is one of the most important keys
in customization for each individual's greatest pleasure in reading.

so yeah, i'm already on the record: hadrien makes beautiful books.

> I think he uses LaTex on the backside ....

yep. huh. i wonder to what extent that's why his books look good.
i'll have to see what happens when i try to mimic one of his books,
see if my engine can approach the quality of the famous tex engine.

> I also agree that PDF is one of the best conceived formats extant
> and marvelous for its designed purpose.

hey, let's not get carried away. i'd call it "adequate", not "marvelous". :+)

> That purpose just isn't all that well suited for e-books
> so its performance there is mediocre, requiring the
> specific formatting you refer to in order to really work well.

i guess that's sufficiently qualified. but i'd say a _good_ designer,
who knows what (s)he's doing in regard to .pdf creation, who also
knows the target monitor, can deliver an excellent e-book in .pdf.
for instance, take a look at some of the .pdfs created by seth godin.
the guy knows how to make .pdf work well. his e-books are _great_.
and you know what, i've never even _seen_ a sonyreader or an iliad,
but i am willing to bet you his e-books will render nicely on them...

> But with DE and epub, we have a situation where Adobe's
> acumen/ruthlessness is now getting behind a format that is
> much better suited for e-books, and a number of e-book sellers
> and e-reading devices have expressly announced plans to support it.
> All of which could be very exciting indeed.

it could be. or it could all be a big dud.

i've seen all of this hype and marketing happen before.
and it was all a big dud. so i'm not holding my breath...

because, you know what?, in spite of adobe's tremendous experience
in the world of digital documents, and the head-start they had on this,
and their control of the timing of the development and announcements,
the first release of "digital editions" was a stinker. i mean, this is _adobe_
-- a rich company with a stable of software engineers and programmers --
and they released a stinker. and months later, it's _still_ a stinker. c'mon...

> If we get a situation where a standard e-reading emerges then
> suddenly all e-books and all e-readers can be inter-compatible,
> and we can then focus on getting that standard format refined
> instead of spening a lot of effort trying to get a standard in the first place.

well, gee, maybe it's just me, but that sounds terribly naive.

oh, yeah, i know that _everyone_ is saying that, so maybe that makes you all
feel more comfortable repeating it, over and over, but i think it's _malarky_.

if the publishers and all the various software and hardware entities involved
had _wanted_ a "standard format", they would have invented one long ago...

oh, that's right, they _did_. it was called "oebps", and it was gonna create
the e-book revolution. until one company did its usual "embrace/extend",
and other companies acted in contrast, with all of them trying to establish
their own little stranglehold on the distribution chain. or, in other words,
_business_as_usual_...

and now we have the "new and improved" version of oebps, and
they're just rolling out the same old hype, with a new timeline...

do you think it's gonna be any different this time around?
can you tell me who's gonna give up their piece of the pie?

amazon paid $3.5 million for mobipocket. do you think they will toss it,
in favor of epub? is microsoft simply throwing in the towel on this arena?
and the publishers still want to slap d.r.m. on everything, which means
a "standard format" won't really end up meaning much of anything at all.
they just don't _want_ you to be moving books from machine to machine.
if they _did_, they coulda solved this "problem" years ago. but they don't.

they will hold on to _every_ form of lock-in they believe they might have,
worried that if they let it go, it will prove to have been the important one.

the problem is, nobody sees how to make any money here at this time
-- and yet, they all know that _potentially_, there is a gold-mine here --
so they are jockeying for position. or, in other words, business as usual.

and sure, sometimes that jockeying for position means that they have to
mouth the platitudes about how their company is supportive of standards,
but when push comes to shove, if they think they're not gonna get a chair
on the cakewalk, then they will push and shove all those platitudes aside.
it's called "business as usual"...

i mean, i _hope_ i'm wrong about all this. but history _does_ repeat itself.

> Mayhaps I dream, but it's a pleasant dream.

well, keep sleeping. because as soon as you wake up, boom, it's over... :+)

-bowerbird

bowerbird · 11-11-2007, 02:20 AM

i'd just like to compare this text
that i read over at teleread, to see
how it compares to my messages.

Click image for larger version

Name: biba.png
Views: 253
Size: 250.6 KB
ID: 7180

-bowerbird

N.A.E.B Cybook pricing kills the deal
for me: $375 not competitive
with Sony Reader’s $300

By Paul Biba

I’ve just noticed that N.A.E.B. (Not
Another E-Book) has posted the
pricing for the Bookeen. It’s $375,
plus shipping. They are selling the
deluxe unit with "…its own battery + 1 USB
cable + 1 USB AC charge device + 1 cover + 1
SD card 1 GB + earphones … This is the deluxe
version and it’s $75 less bought through us
than it is bought retail :
http://www.bookeen.com/shop/ebook-shop.aspx."

Personally, I think selling the deluxe version is
a mistake. There is nothing in the package,
except maybe the case, that is worth a
premium price. If I were ever going to buy one
of these then this package has certainly steered
me away. I would much rather buy the basic
unit which Bookeen sells for $350. I have
earphones, SD cards, USB cables, chargers, etc.
and I can’t see paying a premium price for
them. With their discount (they say: "Ordering
1000 readers at a time gives us a price break
and we pass that price break along to you. This
is what a buyers club does and that’s what
we’re doing.") they could have sold the regular
unit a a price competitive with the Sony Reader.
This has killed the deal for me.

Madam Broshkina · 11-11-2007, 02:42 AM

I really think it about time for this thread to end. It is obvious to me that we are not getting anywhere. No one is going to change their mind. For those of you who have a problem with Bowerbird's post just put him on your ignore list. For me I think that he as provided some valuable insights and can overlook the way that he formats his posts. Apparently some people do approve of his posts judging by his Karma score of around 190 points earlier today. Now as I write this he is at negative 59. Since only moderators can take away karma points I do not think that his negative rating speaks for all the readers of this site. Of course I could be wrong, but one way to disprove my theory is to let everyone have the ability to subtract karma as they see fit.

Alexander Turcic · 11-11-2007, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam Broshkina

Of course I could be wrong, but one way to disprove my theory is to let everyone have the ability to subtract karma as they see fit.

No, we are definitely not going to do this. Until now, nobody has had the need to receive negative Karma, and we do not want to encourage our members to spread negativity. Obviously, something is going on here, or it wouldn't bother so many people. Like I said before, we would completely ignore this issue had we not received any complaints from our members. Obviously this isn't the case.

Madam Broshkina · 11-11-2007, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic

No, we are definitely not going to do this. Until now, nobody has had the need to receive negative Karma, and we do not want to encourage our members to spread negativity. Obviously, something is going on here, or it wouldn't bother so many people. Like I said before, we would completely ignore this issue had we not received any complaints from our members. Obviously this isn't the case.

Thanks for your feedback Alexander. I must ask then what is the purpose of negative karma. Is there a magic number that one must meet to be banned from this site? If not I see no reason for it. Sadly there could be some who consider their negative karma as a kind of a "Badge of Honor".

Alexander Turcic · 11-11-2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam Broshkina

Thanks for your feedback Alexander. I must ask then what is the purpose of negative karma. Is there a magic number that one must meet to be banned from this site? If not I see no reason for it. Sadly there could be some who consider their negative karma as a kind of a "Badge of Honor".

I absolutely agree with you. The benefit of negative karma is rather limited; while there is an option to automatically ban a user who exceeds a negative karma threshold, we don't use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowerbird

...you might even make a feature request to the programmers of the software used in this forum to code a routine that would automatically unwrap lines....

Great suggestion!

bowerbird · 11-11-2007, 10:26 AM

hmm... :+)

11-10-2007, 02:27 PM	#31
doctorow Guru Posts: 914 Karma: 3410461 Join Date: May 2004 Device: Kindle Touch	Since you're already talking about reflowable: I have serious problems with the formatting of your posts, Bowerbird. My eyes aren't the best anymore, hence I need to increase my browser's font-size. Take a look at the attached screenshot what happens to your posts. Please let the browser decide when to start a new line. Attached Thumbnails

11-11-2007, 02:20 AM	#40
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	i'd just like to compare this text that i read over at teleread, to see how it compares to my messages. -bowerbird N.A.E.B Cybook pricing kills the deal for me: $375 not competitive with Sony Reader’s $300 By Paul Biba I’ve just noticed that N.A.E.B. (Not Another E-Book) has posted the pricing for the Bookeen. It’s $375, plus shipping. They are selling the deluxe unit with "…its own battery + 1 USB cable + 1 USB AC charge device + 1 cover + 1 SD card 1 GB + earphones … This is the deluxe version and it’s $75 less bought through us than it is bought retail : http://www.bookeen.com/shop/ebook-shop.aspx." Personally, I think selling the deluxe version is a mistake. There is nothing in the package, except maybe the case, that is worth a premium price. If I were ever going to buy one of these then this package has certainly steered me away. I would much rather buy the basic unit which Bookeen sells for $350. I have earphones, SD cards, USB cables, chargers, etc. and I can’t see paying a premium price for them. With their discount (they say: "Ordering 1000 readers at a time gives us a price break and we pass that price break along to you. This is what a buyers club does and that’s what we’re doing.") they could have sold the regular unit a a price competitive with the Sony Reader. This has killed the deal for me.

11-11-2007, 10:26 AM	#45
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	hmm... :+) Last edited by bowerbird; 11-11-2007 at 10:55 AM.

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11-10-2007, 07:01 PM	#32
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	doctorow said: > Take a look just widen the window. -bowerbird

11-10-2007, 08:59 PM	#33
mogui eNigma Posts: 503 Karma: 1335 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The Philippines Device: HTC G1 Android FBReader	Just as we have freedom of output, we have freedom of input. Though masturbation is not illegal in most countries now, I prefer to write for the widest possible audience. When I design a web page, I like the text to flow. If there is a reason for making it cellular, I use a table. If it is code or verse, I mark it so so the browser won't flow it. But, Bowerbird, I will continue to read your stuff, because you have something to say, and it is interesting. Keep on truckin'

11-11-2007, 12:19 AM	#35
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	Actually, I find the manually broken lines only mildly annoying myself: I'd rather the weren't so, but whatever. Clearly they're important for some reason, because it takes extra trouble to do. @bowerbird: re: PDFs -- I agree with you on how the ease of generation has affected/sponsored PDF ubiquity, it's been kind of a building cycle. Incidentally, you should check out Hadrien's Feedbooks site, it generates PDF files on the fly in just the way you're describing, in several preset sizes, plus a customizable one. I think he uses LaTex on the backside .... I also agree that PDF is one of the best conceived formats extant and marvelous for its designed purpose. That purpose just isn't all that well suited for e-books so its performance there is mediocre, requiring the specific formatting you refer to in order to really work well. But with DE and epub, we have a situation where Adobe's acumen/ruthlessness is now getting behind a format that is much better suited for e-booksn and a number of e-book sellers and e-reading devices have expressly announced plans to support it. All of which could be very exciting indeed. If we get a situation where a standard e-reading emerges then suddenly all e-books and all e-readers can be inter-compatible, and we can then focus on getting that standard format refined instead of spening a lot of effort trying to get a standard in the first place. Mayhaps I dream, but it's a pleasant dream.

11-11-2007, 12:42 AM	#36
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	doctorow said: > I use the fixed-style layout, and this is the max width you could change to the liquid layout. or ask the designer of this site to change the underlying code that limits the column to that width, even for those of us (including you and i) who have monitors that'd go much wider. or you can increase the font-size just a little bit more, so each of my lines would fill out _two_ complete lines on your screen. or perhaps change to another font, with different metrics, most particularly a "narrow" variant... you might even make a feature request to the programmers of the software used in this forum to code a routine that would automatically unwrap lines. (it's easy enough to do; if they have questions about it, i can answer 'em.) or you could just live with the chopped lines, though i agree they are ugly... and it's very interesting, because -- in the screenshot that you showed us -- the lines _would_have_worked_ if they'd only have been a little bit shorter. but most people are complaining because the lines are already _too_short_. ironic, 'eh? > yet I fail to understand why you as i've said before, it's my form of self-expression. i'm sorry if you don't like it. if i was writing posts to please you, i'd change. but i'm not. sorry about that... fortunately, there's nothing compelling you to read my posts. indeed, you can even ignore them completely -- have 'em turned into whitespace -- by merely setting a parameter in your options. or, you know, you can just skip over them. because of my formatting, it's easy to pick 'em out, even from across the room. it won't hurt my feelings if you don't read my posts because of the formatting... i promise... -bowerbird

11-11-2007, 01:03 AM	#37
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,882 Karma: 146918083 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	But I really don't care if your posts can be seen across the room. That is one really silly reason for taking the time to annoy others. As you can see, someone who has the need to increase the font size has your posts looking really nasty because you refuse to be a nice person and just do it so the forum handles the line wrapping. I'm sorry, but your reasoning is inexcusable. Because of your formatting, you make your posts look not nice to someone who should have your posts look fine. Why do you insist on doing it in a way that does bother others? Do you like to annoy people on purpose? Do you like people seeing your posts and skipping them because they don't like they way they look and therefore do not want to read them? Do your words have so little meaning that this is OK to you?

11-11-2007, 01:55 AM	#38
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	jon, i've been writing this way for over 15 years now. hundreds of thousands of words, all over cyberspace. if you think i am going to change now, you are wrong. it's just that simple. so you really need to give it up... -bowerbird

11-11-2007, 02:03 AM	#39
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	> Incidentally, you should check out Hadrien's Feedbooks site oh, i'm _quite_ familiar with hadrien's site. :+) > it generates PDF files on the fly in just the way you're describing, > in several preset sizes, plus a customizable one. well, very much like the way i'm describing. but not exactly. for instance, you can choose the font that's used, but only from a list of a dozen or so. they are great fonts, and that is a range, certainly enough to make you feel like you did _have_ a choice... but if your favorite font in the world -- georgia?, futura?, verdana?, optima?, tahoma?, lucida grande?, baskerville?, eurostyle?, caslon?, bodoni book?, bookman?, bembo?, hoefler?, american typewriter?, gill sans?, stone sans?, comic sans?, benguiat? -- is not on the list... well, it's not on the list... hadrien also lets you control the margins, which is great, and even the _linespacing_, which i think is one of the most important keys in customization for each individual's greatest pleasure in reading. so yeah, i'm already on the record: hadrien makes beautiful books. > I think he uses LaTex on the backside .... yep. huh. i wonder to what extent that's why his books look good. i'll have to see what happens when i try to mimic one of his books, see if my engine can approach the quality of the famous tex engine. > I also agree that PDF is one of the best conceived formats extant > and marvelous for its designed purpose. hey, let's not get carried away. i'd call it "adequate", not "marvelous". :+) > That purpose just isn't all that well suited for e-books > so its performance there is mediocre, requiring the > specific formatting you refer to in order to really work well. i guess that's sufficiently qualified. but i'd say a _good_ designer, who knows what (s)he's doing in regard to .pdf creation, who also knows the target monitor, can deliver an excellent e-book in .pdf. for instance, take a look at some of the .pdfs created by seth godin. the guy knows how to make .pdf work well. his e-books are _great_. and you know what, i've never even _seen_ a sonyreader or an iliad, but i am willing to bet you his e-books will render nicely on them... > But with DE and epub, we have a situation where Adobe's > acumen/ruthlessness is now getting behind a format that is > much better suited for e-books, and a number of e-book sellers > and e-reading devices have expressly announced plans to support it. > All of which could be very exciting indeed. it could be. or it could all be a big dud. i've seen all of this hype and marketing happen before. and it was all a big dud. so i'm not holding my breath... because, you know what?, in spite of adobe's tremendous experience in the world of digital documents, and the head-start they had on this, and their control of the timing of the development and announcements, the first release of "digital editions" was a stinker. i mean, this is _adobe_ -- a rich company with a stable of software engineers and programmers -- and they released a stinker. and months later, it's _still_ a stinker. c'mon... > If we get a situation where a standard e-reading emerges then > suddenly all e-books and all e-readers can be inter-compatible, > and we can then focus on getting that standard format refined > instead of spening a lot of effort trying to get a standard in the first place. well, gee, maybe it's just me, but that sounds terribly naive. oh, yeah, i know that _everyone_ is saying that, so maybe that makes you all feel more comfortable repeating it, over and over, but i think it's _malarky_. if the publishers and all the various software and hardware entities involved had _wanted_ a "standard format", they would have invented one long ago... oh, that's right, they _did_. it was called "oebps", and it was gonna create the e-book revolution. until one company did its usual "embrace/extend", and other companies acted in contrast, with all of them trying to establish their own little stranglehold on the distribution chain. or, in other words, _business_as_usual_... and now we have the "new and improved" version of oebps, and they're just rolling out the same old hype, with a new timeline... do you think it's gonna be any different this time around? can you tell me who's gonna give up their piece of the pie? amazon paid $3.5 million for mobipocket. do you think they will toss it, in favor of epub? is microsoft simply throwing in the towel on this arena? and the publishers still want to slap d.r.m. on everything, which means a "standard format" won't really end up meaning much of anything at all. they just don't _want_ you to be moving books from machine to machine. if they _did_, they coulda solved this "problem" years ago. but they don't. they will hold on to _every_ form of lock-in they believe they might have, worried that if they let it go, it will prove to have been the important one. the problem is, nobody sees how to make any money here at this time -- and yet, they all know that _potentially_, there is a gold-mine here -- so they are jockeying for position. or, in other words, business as usual. and sure, sometimes that jockeying for position means that they have to mouth the platitudes about how their company is supportive of standards, but when push comes to shove, if they think they're not gonna get a chair on the cakewalk, then they will push and shove all those platitudes aside. it's called "business as usual"... i mean, i _hope_ i'm wrong about all this. but history _does_ repeat itself. > Mayhaps I dream, but it's a pleasant dream. well, keep sleeping. because as soon as you wake up, boom, it's over... :+) -bowerbird

11-11-2007, 02:42 AM	#41
Madam Broshkina Manic Do Fuse Posts: 2,312 Karma: 3325462 Join Date: Oct 2006 Device: Sony 500, 505, 350, Kindle 3, DXG, nook, Irex DR800SG, iPad	I really think it about time for this thread to end. It is obvious to me that we are not getting anywhere. No one is going to change their mind. For those of you who have a problem with Bowerbird's post just put him on your ignore list. For me I think that he as provided some valuable insights and can overlook the way that he formats his posts. Apparently some people do approve of his posts judging by his Karma score of around 190 points earlier today. Now as I write this he is at negative 59. Since only moderators can take away karma points I do not think that his negative rating speaks for all the readers of this site. Of course I could be wrong, but one way to disprove my theory is to let everyone have the ability to subtract karma as they see fit.

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