Two freebies at Baen

[fjtorres]

Different strokes and all that.
For my money, Heinlein's worst by far was the utterly self-indulgent (and devoid of any editorial fingerprint) NUMBER OF THE BEAST. SUNSET might be worse, I suppose, but by then I was done with him.

Now, on the Baen side I'm quite fond of the recent Vorkosigan volumes, most of the 163x series, to say nothing of the triple ongoing Weber Honorverse series. Or the Hell's Gate series. The recent Webers are a tad verbose in places, yes, but I survived reading Lord of the Rings twice in one week long ago, so verbose doesn't stop me. And, having purchased the odd ARC here and there (plus the oopsie), I can attest that *some* editing has occured. Which is more than I can say for Weber's Tor-published Safehold series.

(Shrug)
Being well acquainted with Sturgeon's law, I don't pretend any publisher is above putting out clunkers but since SF is the literature of ideas, even the most vile or poorly executed SF book has something to say to somebody as long as they're willing to listen. Doesn't mean everything has to please everybody, though. In fact, most of my favorite books have annoyed somebody somewhere which I take as a good sign.

Baen makes it clear they are not adverse to publishing space opera and neo-pulps, as well as straight adventure SF, urban fantasy, and spoofs. Suits me just fine. I like risk-takers.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Different strokes and all that.
For my money, Heinlein's worst by far was the utterly self-indulgent (and devoid of any editorial fingerprint) NUMBER OF THE BEAST. SUNSET might be worse, I suppose, but by then I was done with him.

Now, on the Baen side I'm quite fond of the recent Vorkosigan volumes, most of the 163x series, to say nothing of the triple ongoing Weber Honorverse series. Or the Hell's Gate series. The recent Webers are a tad verbose in places, yes, but I survived reading Lord of the Rings twice in one week long ago, so verbose doesn't stop me. And, having purchased the odd ARC here and there (plus the oopsie), I can attest that *some* editing has occured. Which is more than I can say for Weber's Tor-published Safehold series.

(Shrug)
Being well acquainted with Sturgeon's law, I don't pretend any publisher is above putting out clunkers but since SF is the literature of ideas, even the most vile or poorly executed SF book has something to say to somebody as long as they're willing to listen. Doesn't mean everything has to please everybody, though. In fact, most of my favorite books have annoyed somebody somewhere which I take as a good sign.

Baen makes it clear they are not adverse to publishing space opera and neo-pulps, as well as straight adventure SF, urban fantasy, and spoofs. Suits me just fine. I like risk-takers.

The thing about the number of the beast and his other late books is you can watch Heinlein's brain though the text, it stretches and then about 2/3'rds of the way though a nice adventure story, *snap* like a rubber band and all of a sudden it's all about incest nudism and plural marriage and you're like what the hell man? Youput up with is in Time enough for love becuase the tale of the adopted daughter makes you cry, you put up with it in the cat who walked though walls because it's an awesome future adventure till they get to tertius. Farnham didn't have the saving grace of being decent up until he shook things up, it was lackluster before then and then just bad and racially insensitive.

The 163x's started decently but have now just become awful. The storylines go everywhere, nothing ever seems resolved, they're not books, they're not even chapters, they're low on plot snapshots of a place and time. Building a world is great but what happens in it should be solid plot arcs that have a point and come to a resolution. Characters don't grow past whatever they were needed to be to start the plot of that book. His naval series with Webber is decent though.

The early Honor Harrington books were plagued with political strawmen and constant almost random viewpoint shifts, the later ones (which I read because I promised someone I would or I'd have stopped) managed to settle down the viewpoint problem to where the changes were at least spaced out properly and in places where there were logical breaks for doing so but it was replaced with 10 page blocks of expository text that just drives me crazy, show don't tell.

Much like with 163x Webber's collaborations with Flint are better, they seems to brace up each other's shortcomings acting like the missing editor they'd both do much better to have.

And no I'm not saying others don't put out clunkers but for their pet authors Baen has really lowered the bar. I've questioned for awhile whether they're more vanity press for a handful of names than a full service publisher. A situation of I like your politics or Jim Baen had already signed you so whatever you give us, we publish no questions asked no editing offered. It's a small niche, relying on fans of authors to care only about names, and it works for them but it is limiting.

Like I said Tor or Ace wouldn't have published most of it and none of it without editing. Even the Flint Webber pairing could still use a final coat of polish. I'd rather read a book than a spell checked manuscript.

[fencepost]

I'll agree that there have been some clunkers. Aside from the Kratman books being discussed above (the first was interesting enough I guess but didn't leave me looking for the followups), I'd throw in John Ringo's nearly-disabled former-military superman who stows away around the world, then single-handedly kills off bin Laden and the head of some nation creating WMDs in their secret lab, thereby rescuing (and acquiring a harem of) beautiful nude coeds, many of whom prefer to remain nude and who are into bondage when they join him on his yacht to circle the world continuing to fight terrorism. It's like some horrible Rambo meets Charlie's Angels slash fic, and it's not even *good* slash fic.

[rhadin]

I guess I don't understand the concern. I am a leftwinger by political philosophy and certainly think the far-rightwingers here in the U.S. are missing a nut or two, but I don't understand the concern when it comes to novels.

I guess I read novels at a superficial level, merely for their entertainment value. I don't delve into the political tripe that some authors espouse in their books, largely because I only want to read a decently written story that entertains.

I've read posts here at MR that complain about David Weber's Honor Harrington series being rightwing and hawkish, but I've never noticed his political leanings. The stories have been entertaining and decently written, so I buy them and read them. I don't analyze them -- they are fiction, they are entertainment, they are nothing more to me. I read them once, then I dispose of them.

I guess what I don't understand is why do some fiction readers more intensely read a novel in an attempt to discern a writer's political philosophy? Why not read it just for the entertainment value, a more surface reading?

[EDIT: I should say I have not read any books or stories written by Kratman. I have downloaded the 2 free ebooks and added them to my TBR pile.]

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

There is that but we might as well get to my biggest problem with Baen of late. I don't know if the authors are refusing to be edited or the editing staff are just sub-par but as gatekeepers Baen is doing a poor job. No one seems to be taking an ax to the 6 page long chunks of expository text, saying hey how about you try to let some of this information come out naturally as part of the plot and how about cutting this down to two sentences because if this is the eighth book or whatever in the series, anyone reading it probably read the seventh and we don't need a 12 page recap of events from the last book in the middle of chapter nineteen, just saying.

If I had to bet, based on my own experience as an editor, it is the authors fighting any editorial changes, often flatout refusing to be edited, and not a failure of the editing staff. Increasingly, authors are fighting the idea that they need editors. And if an author sells well, the publishers simply give in.

[Kevin8or]

Originally Posted by rhadin

If I had to bet, based on my own experience as an editor, it is the authors fighting any editorial changes, often flatout refusing to be edited, and not a failure of the editing staff. Increasingly, authors are fighting the idea that they need editors. And if an author sells well, the publishers simply give in.

This agrees with what I've read elsewhere. Once an author is "successful," editors' demands become suggestions easily rejected. The tight writing of the early novels gives way to excessive exposition & other verbiage.

A great example is Terry Goodkind. I loved his first few novels, and although I've not abandoned him, his later novels sometimes seem to be written by someone else. It gets so bad that I sometimes skim ahead a few pages to get on with the actual story.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by Kevin8or

This agrees with what I've read elsewhere. Once an author is "successful," editors' demands become suggestions easily rejected. The tight writing of the early novels gives way to excessive exposition & other verbiage.

A great example is Terry Goodkind. I loved his first few novels, and although I've not abandoned him, his later novels sometimes seem to be written by someone else. It gets so bad that I sometimes skim ahead a few pages to get on with the actual story.

How about the steaming turd Jim Butcher put out claiming to be the new Dresden files book? I almost died of embarrassment after talking up his ability to keep his stories tightly written, to Elizabeth Moon no less. Then a few week later Ghost Story came out.... I should throw myself at her feet and beg forgiveness.

And on that subject, writers need editors, dear gods they need editors. How can anyone expect to notice all the problems by themselves or with a small group of dedicated alpha readers who may well not have any qualifications for the task other than enjoying that type of novel? Sure fight with an editor over what really matters to you but maybe just maybe try and remember they're professionals and their job is to tell you where the problems are.

Oh and rhadin, Mission of Honor was a rambling mess that seemed to serve no purpose but to move you to the next book or possibly see how long of an info dump a person can put up with before they say screw it and switch to reading something else.

Dickens was paid by the word, what's Webber's excuse?

[Kevin8or]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

How about the steaming turd Jim Butcher put out claiming to be the new Dresden files book? I almost died of embarrassment after talking up his ability to keep his stories tightly written, to Elizabeth Moon no less. Then a few week later Ghost Story came out.... I should throw myself at her feet and beg forgiveness.

Dresden Files are in my TBR file. Maybe. There are so damn many good books to read, and so few years in which to read them.

[Jabby]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Because Baen have some extremely unpleasant right-wing xenophobes writing for them, and unfortunately there does seem to be an audience for this garbage.

I much prefer the writings of extremely unpleasant left-wingers who are highly intolerant of ideologies other than their own. Fortunately there does seem to be an audience for this garbage.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Jabby

I much prefer the writings of extremely unpleasant left-wingers who are highly intolerant of ideologies other than their own. Fortunately there does seem to be an audience for this garbage.

Well, thanks... That surely added a lot to this discussion.

[khalleron]

I only go to Baen for Bujold.

I've picked up a bunch of freebies and bundles from time to time, but I honestly haven't found ONE book or author there I enjoyed.

The problem with the one Honor Harrington book I read was I kept scratching my head wondering why the author had made his protagonist a woman. Honor doesn't do (or think or feel) anything differently than your typical white male pulp protagonist, so why is she a she? Did they think it would attract more women readers? To tell the truth, I might have enjoyed the series if she'd been a he - I'm very fond of space opera and swashbucklers - but the cognitive dissonance made the book nearly unreadable.

So I go there for the Bujold and just ignore the other stuff.

[TheLongshot]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Fallen Angels was just poorly written. it has a few funny nerd jokes, would probably have more if I knew the people characters were based on but as I've notied more with Baen than other publishers, the pacing was off, and the info dumps were too long.

Fallen Angels was a love letter to fandom, for the most part. Beyond that, it was hard to take the story seriously and enjoyed it on that level. And I instantly recognised one character. Kinda hard not to recognise Leslie Fish if you have ever met her.

The thing about the number of the beast and his other late books is you can watch Heinlein's brain though the text, it stretches and then about 2/3'rds of the way though a nice adventure story, *snap* like a rubber band and all of a sudden it's all about incest nudism and plural marriage and you're like what the hell man? Youput up with is in Time enough for love becuase the tale of the adopted daughter makes you cry, you put up with it in the cat who walked though walls because it's an awesome future adventure till they get to tertius. Farnham didn't have the saving grace of being decent up until he shook things up, it was lackluster before then and then just bad and racially insensitive.

At least with most of those books, Heinlein had the excuse of his failing health. That being said, I still think Job and Friday are pretty good books, even if my wife says that he doesn't understand women at all.

The 163x's started decently but have now just become awful. The storylines go everywhere, nothing ever seems resolved, they're not books, they're not even chapters, they're low on plot snapshots of a place and time. Building a world is great but what happens in it should be solid plot arcs that have a point and come to a resolution. Characters don't grow past whatever they were needed to be to start the plot of that book. His naval series with Webber is decent though.

Funny, but I just had a conversation last week about these books. I have a friend of mine who has decided that avoiding all the Virgina DeMarce books is a good policy. Personally, I've never read that far (I've only read the first two books), but my wife is a big fan.

Much like with 163x Webber's collaborations with Flint are better, they seems to brace up each other's shortcomings acting like the missing editor they'd both do much better to have.

Funny, because politically they are opposite of each other. (I remember reading Weber's Dahak series and him randomly taking shots at labor unions, which seemed to me out of the blue.)

Personally, when you have a label that does a lot of military SF, you have to expect a lot of conservative writing. That just comes with the territory. It is just a question of how obnoxious it gets. Weber isn't bad, but Ringo can be. (I remember reading "Into The Looking Glass" and was amused by his Mary Sueish athletic conservative scientist ubermench main character.) But, there are also authors like Flint and Bujold that are on the other side of the spectrum, so I don't think it is all what Baen is about. I do tend to be chosey about what I read from them, tho.

[TheLongshot]

Originally Posted by khalleron

So I go there for the Bujold and just ignore the other stuff.

You might want to give Eric Flint a chance. My wife is a huge Bujold fan and became a huge Flint fan as well when exposed to him. He tends to be somewhat lightweight and overly optimistic, but he does seem to write a good yarn.

[Jabby]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Well, thanks... That surely added a lot to this discussion.

Sorry Jerry,
Comments like "extremely unpleasant right-wing xenophobes" rub me the wrong way and I reacted out of pique.

My apologies to all.
Regards - John

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by rhadin

If I had to bet, based on my own experience as an editor, it is the authors fighting any editorial changes, often flatout refusing to be edited, and not a failure of the editing staff. Increasingly, authors are fighting the idea that they need editors. And if an author sells well, the publishers simply give in.

That was my interpretation on NUMBER OF THE BEAST and why I stopped buying Heinlein.
No author can be so good as to be above editing.