DRM Handcuffs - Page 3

kennyc · 09-24-2011, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonetools

It's a good thing that indie authors looking for an audience to go no DRm. Best selling authors are in a completely different place. Ms. Rowling is going with social DRm, but she may take big losses over this. We will see.

Ah, the old tired "lost sales due to piracy" argument. Yawn.....

kennyc · 09-24-2011, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRussel

But let's be clear. If it's an Amazon book, and Amazon goes out of business (admittedly, not terribly likely right now), then their archive of your book is suddenly gone.

Personally, I dislike DRM intensely. But I also have zero qualms about removing it, and do so on every single book I buy. The day someone creates a DRM plan for Amazon that I can't remove, is the day I stop buying books from them.

I also think the OP misses the very real marketplace of DRM-Free books out there. Currently, well over half of the books in my Calibre library started out as DRM-Free. And that percentage holds true for those marked "ToBeRead".

I think refusing to buy a reader because of DRM is frankly "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why didn't you remove the DRM as you got the books? That's what most of us do, and it makes life an awful lot easier.

This!

(but not just Amazon, all ebook sellers)

xg4bx · 09-24-2011, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why didn't you remove the DRM as you got the books? That's what most of us do, and it makes life an awful lot easier.

because a) i'm a dope lol b) somehow i have quite a few books that calibre won't strip. it seems like small presses and indies use super drm.

pdurrant · 09-24-2011, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why didn't you remove the DRM as you got the books? That's what most of us do, and it makes life an awful lot easier.

Probably because people don't understand about the problems with DRM until one of them bits them personally.

For me, this happened back in 2003 or so, and the specific problem was the inconvenience of having to download specific copies for specific devices (Mobipocket DRM), which meant that it was impossible to keep a reliable backup archive of purchased books.

CRussel · 09-24-2011, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xg4bx

because a) i'm a dope lol b) somehow i have quite a few books that calibre won't strip. it seems like small presses and indies use super drm.

Not true. If it's on your Kindle, the DRM can be stripped. It's really just that simple. And it definitely is a lot easier to do it one by one as you buy the books, than all at once when you get a new device. Plus you can now make full backups of your books and Calibre library to protect yourself.

DiapDealer · 09-24-2011, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xg4bx

because a) i'm a dope lol b) somehow i have quite a few books that calibre won't strip. it seems like small presses and indies use super drm.

Once again (for clarity's sake)... calibre doesn't have anything to do with stripping DRM. They work too hard on that perfectly legal (and vastly handy) application for such a careless association to take hold permanently. Third party addons to calibre do the stripping. I know I probably sound like a broken record, but I don't care... the distinction is rather important, I think.

CRussel · 09-24-2011, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Once again (for clarity's sake)... calibre doesn't have anything to do with stripping DRM. They work too hard on that perfectly legal (and vastly handy) application for such a careless association to take hold permanently. Third party addons to calibre do the stripping. I know I probably sound like a broken record, but I don't care... the distinction is rather important, I think.

No, it is an important distinction. Calibre isn't the program removing DRM. It's the third party plug-ins that do that. Calibre, however, is an excellent tool to maintain and back up our ebook libraries once the books have been "liberated".

BillSmithBooks · 09-24-2011, 11:06 AM

I know there are some (many?) folks who take the position that DRM is easy to strip from Amazon books, trivially easy almost, and so it's no big deal.

But it IS a big deal in principle and in fact.

I shouldn't have to spend time and effort de-crapifying a book I BOUGHT. DRM dictates the terms and conditions under which you may use a product you bought, which violates my rights as a consumer.

Publishers and vendors should not be able to restrict my right to read my ebooks on my device anymore than a publisher can dictate that a paper book can only be read on the subway at 3 AM under harsh flourescent lights.

DRM will become an even bigger deal if Amazon upgrades their DRM to be harder to disable, which could happen at any time without warning. Or if Amazon or another vendor decides to punish (ban) or sue people for removing DRM.

In the US, removing or bypassing DRM is a violation of the DMCA, a Federal offense, and anyone who does so is theoretically liable for large fines. Just because nobody has bothered to enforce this law against consumers yet does not mean that it will never happen -- just look at the way the file sharing lawsuits are playing out. Yes, ultimately consumers MAY win, but the cost of doing so is enough to bankrupt a good many defendants along the way.

Bottom line, if you have a book with DRM, it was not sold to you. It was rented to you, to be used at the whim and mercy of the vendor.

Consumers need to understand this before they end up with a bricked library. Consumers should be encouraged to support only DRM-free vendors so they have access to their books long after the vendor is out of business or they decide to change devices.

And consumers should be taught to vote with their wallets -- buy only from DRM-free vendors, boycott the vendors and publishers who use DRM and tell them about it, loudly and publicly. This is the only way to change the situation and it should be changed for the good of everyone.

DRM is terrible for consumers and expensive for vendors. It harms honest readers and prevents them from reading books they've paid for on their own devices ... while being a mere annoyance (for the time being) for the people intent on stealing content.

alansplace · 09-24-2011, 11:11 AM

yes, well thought out and stated.

DiapDealer · 09-24-2011, 11:19 AM

Quote:

In the US, removing or bypassing DRM is a violation of the DMCA, a Federal offense, and anyone who does so is theoretically liable for large fines.

The situation is not as cut and dried as you portray it here. For those who make and distribute DRM removal tools in the US, you are surely correct. But for those who use those tools, it's not so clear. The question is whether DMCA laws trump Fair Use rights... and that question has yet to be answered definitively (legally).

You may end up being right in the long run, but for now... it's still uncharted territory, mired with conflicting legal opinions from both sides of the table.

Catlady · 09-24-2011, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's not "borrowing" a book; that's giving you a book to keep forever. Unless the book is in the public domain, this seems very unlikely.

Just the other day, I borrowed a book (The Two, by Irving and Amy Wallace) I'd had on hold from the Free Library of Philadelphia. I had the choice of Adobe epub, Adobe pdf, open epub, and open pdf. First time I've had a choice of download options, so I chose open epub, but I have no idea what that means in terms of the book expiring or not, since I've never before borrowed an open epub book.

JD Gumby · 09-24-2011, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why didn't you remove the DRM as you got the books? That's what most of us do, and it makes life an awful lot easier.

Because it's not obvious how to do it, for many people. Plus it is illegal to do so, even for personal use, in the USA thanks to the anti-circumvention portion of the DMCA (whereas here in Canada we've got the right to format- and device-shift - but not distribution rights, of course. The Harper government, however, seems to want to put us in lock-step with the USA on copyright issues... :/).

CRussel · 09-24-2011, 11:35 AM

1.) Removing DRM to enable format switching or backups is legal in Canada, though that could change with the current government.

2.) My point several(!) posts ago hasn't changed. If Amazon or any other bookstore has non-removable DRM, I will NOT buy books from them. (I won't buy eBooks from Apple for just that reason.)

kennyc · 09-24-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

Just the other day, I borrowed a book (The Two, by Irving and Amy Wallace) I'd had on hold from the Free Library of Philadelphia. I had the choice of Adobe epub, Adobe pdf, open epub, and open pdf. First time I've had a choice of download options, so I chose open epub, but I have no idea what that means in terms of the book expiring or not, since I've never before borrowed an open epub book.

Is it encrypted?

I don't know what it is either and Googling doesn't give much info either.

Purple Lady · 09-24-2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

Just the other day, I borrowed a book (The Two, by Irving and Amy Wallace) I'd had on hold from the Free Library of Philadelphia. I had the choice of Adobe epub, Adobe pdf, open epub, and open pdf. First time I've had a choice of download options, so I chose open epub, but I have no idea what that means in terms of the book expiring or not, since I've never before borrowed an open epub book.

My book was from the Philly library too, and that's what I was trying to say - I don't know what will happen when the borrowing period ends.

09-24-2011, 11:11 AM	#39
alansplace Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,895 Karma: 464403178 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: 33.9388° N, 117.2716° W Device: Kindles K-2, K-KB, PW 1 & 2, Voyage, Fire 2, 5 & HD 8, Surface 3, iPad	ditto... yes, well thought out and stated.

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09-24-2011, 11:06 AM	#38
BillSmithBooks Padawan Learner Posts: 243 Karma: 1085815 Join Date: May 2009 Location: www.OutlawGalaxy.com, Foothills of NY's Adirondack mountains Device: My PC...using Puppy Linux (FBReader, Calibre, Kindle Cloud Reader,	I know there are some (many?) folks who take the position that DRM is easy to strip from Amazon books, trivially easy almost, and so it's no big deal. But it IS a big deal in principle and in fact. I shouldn't have to spend time and effort de-crapifying a book I BOUGHT. DRM dictates the terms and conditions under which you may use a product you bought, which violates my rights as a consumer. Publishers and vendors should not be able to restrict my right to read my ebooks on my device anymore than a publisher can dictate that a paper book can only be read on the subway at 3 AM under harsh flourescent lights. DRM will become an even bigger deal if Amazon upgrades their DRM to be harder to disable, which could happen at any time without warning. Or if Amazon or another vendor decides to punish (ban) or sue people for removing DRM. In the US, removing or bypassing DRM is a violation of the DMCA, a Federal offense, and anyone who does so is theoretically liable for large fines. Just because nobody has bothered to enforce this law against consumers yet does not mean that it will never happen -- just look at the way the file sharing lawsuits are playing out. Yes, ultimately consumers MAY win, but the cost of doing so is enough to bankrupt a good many defendants along the way. Bottom line, if you have a book with DRM, it was not sold to you. It was rented to you, to be used at the whim and mercy of the vendor. Consumers need to understand this before they end up with a bricked library. Consumers should be encouraged to support only DRM-free vendors so they have access to their books long after the vendor is out of business or they decide to change devices. And consumers should be taught to vote with their wallets -- buy only from DRM-free vendors, boycott the vendors and publishers who use DRM and tell them about it, loudly and publicly. This is the only way to change the situation and it should be changed for the good of everyone. DRM is terrible for consumers and expensive for vendors. It harms honest readers and prevents them from reading books they've paid for on their own devices ... while being a mere annoyance (for the time being) for the people intent on stealing content.

09-24-2011, 11:35 AM	#43
CRussel (he/him/his) Posts: 12,296 Karma: 80074820 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Sunshine Coast, BC Device: Oasis (Gen3),Paperwhite (Gen10), Voyage, Paperwhite(orig), iPad Air M3	1.) Removing DRM to enable format switching or backups is legal in Canada, though that could change with the current government. 2.) My point several(!) posts ago hasn't changed. If Amazon or any other bookstore has non-removable DRM, I will NOT buy books from them. (I won't buy eBooks from Apple for just that reason.)

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