Yup, another one of these. Help an open-source vigilante?

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Originally Posted by pidgeon92

Of course you don't. However, right now a device that has everything on your list simply doesn't exist, which is why people recommend workarounds on existing devices.

Yeah, I know. I tend to do that, especially if I have a small knowledge base of what's currently possible. Just seemed like some people were tossing out almost every single thing I listed in favor of what I'm supposing is their personal favorite.

Maybe now that I have gotten some helpful info I should narrow the field.

1. Still want open-source. Not budging on this one. Yes, I know I'll have to occasionally deal with DRM anyway. But I want to see the producer make the effort.

2. Price range is still the same. I can't justify a $200 e-reader. I can only barely justify $150.

3. I'd still greatly prefer touch, and/or just a couple simply buttons.

4. I'd still like some format diversity.

What's dropped off the list...

1. Wifi/3g is now not very important to me since I realize I wouldn't be able to go to my school website with it. For anything else I may want, it's just faster and easier to do it on my netbook.

2. News/magazines. Since I could make that work with anything and I'm not even sure exactly how much I'd use it, I don't care about not having it set up from the factory.

Right now I'm looking at the Kobo and the BeBook, although the BeBook is probably out of my price range. I'm also looking into Bookeen and the PocketBooks (which one??).

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

Why are those shaky reasons? I'll come back to this at the end...

I don't have a Nook and can't confirm this; I've heard that sideloaded books are treated differently--not part of the same directories, potentially limited in storage capacity (like, 2gb total--of which 500mb can be sideloaded). But I'm reporting rumours filtered through my don't-have-one, don't-really-care perceptions.

I'm sure it must be nice to not have to consider budget when purchasing things, but unfortunately I'm not really there, as a full-time student. I can't simply "drop that requirement."

I *do* understand. Really. And price does matter... but if it's *at all* possible to you, let it matter less.

If the choice is between "Ereader A, which has 80% of what I want, but costs $199" and "Ereader B, which has 60% of what I want, and costs $140"... scrounge for the extra $60. Amortize it out over how long you intend to use the device; if this is going to be your book reader for 3 years, $20/year should be do-able.

Yeah, I know student budgets don't work that way. But really: this is an area where the extra few dollars can mean the difference between "yeah, I have an ereader but I could never get the hang of reading on it" and "this is my ereader; no, you can't touch it; they will pry it from my cold, dead fingers someday."

The extra readings I have online are fairly short - 10-20 page PoliSci readings. I figure it should be ok for that, though I understand e-readers aren't ready for full academic texts yet. But they should be ok for that, yeah?

It's not so much length as formatting, but yes, shorter docs helps. And if you've got a netbook, you can use that to read anything that just does not work right on an ereader; it's easier to deal with the LCD screen if your eyes sometimes get a break.

But please don't tell me that my needs and my ethics don't matter, if they happen to disqualify the product you like.

Sorry it comes off that way. I think what we're trying to do is tell you that *nothing* fits exactly what you're looking for (or for that matter, what any of us are looking for; we've pretty much all got a list of features from several different devices we'd like to see combined into one), and while you should keep your ethics in mind while shopping--I don't buy from Walmart or Nestle, ever, no matter how good the price is--you should know what you're passing up. (If for no other reason than you're in a better position to pester the companies you *are* willing to deal with, if you can tell them, "hey, the competition has [this]. Why don't you have [this]?")

I don't like feeling like I have to justify everything on my list. The only person I should have to justify it to is me. I'm not coming down on anyone else's choices. They're just not my choices.

You don't have to justify your choices to us. Part of it is saying, nothing is going to be perfect, so here's what the options are if some of your criteria were different; you have to sort out for yourself which ones are most flexible. And part of it's that this is a busy forum with a lot of lurkers, and advice that might not be useful to you might help someone else with different criteria & limitations.

Mostly, we'd like you to be happy with whatever you pick, and not kicking yourself over, "man, the Kindles have what? And I passed that by because Amazon's a bit sleazy sometimes? That was dumb."

Not saying you should override your ethics--but we've got no way of knowing if you've really looked into Amazon, or if you're relying on random web-babble about "Amazon is icky." (They are. Apple is ickier.)

The ereaders with the best open source support are also the most expensive and tend to be behind the curve for new features, for fairly obvious reasons. Up to you to decide how to weigh the options.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

1. Still want open-source. Not budging on this one. Yes, I know I'll have to occasionally deal with DRM anyway. But I want to see the producer make the effort.

I'm not sure what you mean by "open-source." None of the ereaders on the market come with open source firmware; only the Jinkes (hanvon, bebook, ezreader) can have their firmware replaced with open-source firmware. (I believe. Could be mistaken; I don't keep up with this.)

None of them require you to only deal with books from their store-of-choice. The Kindle's the most limited, being the only one that doesn't deal with DRM'd ebooks from other stores; the rest all work with Adobe Digital Editions. (I believe.) B&N's DRM is different from other ADE DRM, but Nooks will read both types.

You don't, potentially, have to deal with DRM; I don't. And you can get DRM-stripping software if you decide you need to read something that's only available with DRM. (I'm not a student; I don't *have* to read anything. I have a firm policy of not bothering with DRM at all; it's not worth installing the software to get DRM'd freebies. You may not be in a position to have a policy like that.)

2. Price range is still the same. I can't justify a $200 e-reader. I can only barely justify $150.

If that's solid, it's solid. You may be looking at ebay, then; the under-$150 selection for new devices is very limited.

Does screen size matter to you? The 5" screens are considerably cheaper than 6" screens. (I prefer a 5" screen, but I'm sharply in the minority for that.)

3. I'd still greatly prefer touch, and/or just a couple simply buttons.

Not hard to get. Touch is more common now than it was a couple of years ago; Amazon is the biggest holdout.

4. I'd still like some format diversity.

You're in luck there; Amazon & Nook are the most limited devices for formats, and you don't want those for other reasons.

Right now I'm looking at the Kobo and the BeBook, although the BeBook is probably out of my price range. I'm also looking into Bookeen and the PocketBooks (which one??).

The new BeBook looks good, but the current model is $179, and the new one isn't likely to be cheaper.

[charmian]

I think it's difficult for us to understand what you mean by open source, given that all of the ereaders are using an operating system specific to their device, which I assume aren't legally open source even if they are based on Linux or Android. By open source do you mean that the code of the operating system is under GPL, or that they release their source?

What do you define as "making the effort" and which ereaders pass this standard? I think you would get more helpful responses if you were very specific on this point. You seem to be saying the Kobo is acceptable on this point, but the Nook is not? Why?

Re: the course readings. It REALLY depends on the format of the readings, and how much tolerance you have for reading PDFs sideways or zooming in. If the readings are in HTML form, there should be no problem.

But, assuming they are PDFs, if your reader can do landscape mode, reading PDFs formatted for a normal size page is......tolerable, but not really pleasant. What I would do is look for videos on youtube of the reader you're interested in displaying PDFs, and see what you think about the performance. You can also try reflowing PDFs, but the results are very mixed.

Based on what you're saying, you had might as well get the Kobo touch. If you are going to be reading PDFs, I would not get Nook STR because it doesn't allow you to do landscape mode for PDFs. Bookeen is out of your price range. All the Pocketbooks except for the 360 (the 5" model) probably are as well.

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Originally Posted by charmian

I think it's difficult for us to understand what you mean by open source, given that all of the ereaders are using an operating system specific to their device, which I assume aren't legally open source even if they are based on Linux or Android. By open source do you mean that the code of the operating system is under GPL, or that they release their source?

What do you define as "making the effort" and which ereaders pass this standard? I think you would get more helpful responses if you were very specific on this point. You seem to be saying the Kobo is acceptable on this point, but the Nook is not? Why?

Re: the course readings. It REALLY depends on the format of the readings, and how much tolerance you have for reading PDFs sideways or zooming in. If the readings are in HTML form, there should be no problem.

But, assuming they are PDFs, if your reader can do landscape mode, reading PDFs formatted for a normal size page is......tolerable, but not really pleasant. What I would do is look for videos on youtube of the reader you're interested in displaying PDFs, and see what you think about the performance. You can also try reflowing PDFs, but the results are very mixed.

Based on what you're saying, you had might as well get the Kobo touch. If you are going to be reading PDFs, I would not get Nook STR because it doesn't allow you to do landscape mode for PDFs. Bookeen is out of your price range. All the Pocketbooks except for the 360 (the 5" model) probably are as well.

To be honest, I am not really sure how th Kobo deals with DRM in their store. I'm finding that hard to get a solid answer on as I'm researching.

If their store is mostly DRM, I suppose that puts it on the same footing as the Nook, which is on better footing to me than the Kindle.

What I mean is that for the Kindle, they want you to use an uncommon file format with DRM for the specific reason that they want to lock you into their device only, and they want to have control over your content. It's basically the same thing Apple tries to do (and to an increasing extent, Windows as well).

I don't want that. It may not be possible to escape that entirely but I want to get as close as I can.

Open-source in this context can mean a lot of things.
1. Open-source firmware. I can't seem to find any e-book out there that comes with this as native, though I have looked at OpenInkpot.
2. Open-source in terms of accepting file formats (as opposed to walled garden). Kindle, for example, is not open-source in this sense - it explicitly tries to prevent you from reading the most common e-book file format.
3. Open-source in terms of allowing the publisher/author to decide whether to DRM their content. Kindle, B&N, and Kobo do allow this. Sony and Apple do not, last I heard - they will force you into DRM before you can sell through them.

I consider #2 and #3 particularly unlikable. This is why I'd rather have a Windows computer than a Mac, if I had to pick.

But I'd like an e-reader that does as many of these as possible. If there is an e-reader whose personal bookstore is completely DRM-free, that would tilt me very significantly in their direction.

But open-source format reading and allowing creators to choose how to sell their work is the most important to me, and I don't want something that prohibits either of those things. If I have to compromise on #3, then that's how it's gotta be.

[Rizla]

All the readers are trying to lock-in the market. The Kindle is possibly the worse in that it doesn't support epub and pushes its own proprietary file format.

From a technical perspective, I suspect the Nook Touch is the most 'open,' because it uses an android OS. For example, I believe you can run the Opera browser on it.

[SmokeAndMirrors]

The approach of this one is appealing to me, as an example.

http://www.pixelar.co.uk/ebookdetails.php?ID=1

They have their own bookstore. They allow creators to choose DRM or not. They will keep record of your purchases so you can download them again if need be, but some DRM's only allow 3 downloads. If you reach that limit, you can contact them and they will reset the limit for you.

This shows effort on their part to make sure that when you pay for something, it is actually yours.

It also accepts a large variety of file formats, so it is not trying to lock you into "their" format.

I don't know if the firmware is open-source - probably not. It would probably be hoisting that flag high if it did.

But this is an example of what I am looking for in terms of how they are handling their stores and formats. I have no idea whether the reader itself suits me yet, but I'm definitely paying attention now.

EDIT: It also uses FBReader for most formats, which is an open-source program. More points for them.

EDIT2: And this one comes with open-source firmware is standard. It DOES exist!
http://ereaderguide.info/azbooka_n51...der_review.htm

[HarryT]

Our focus here is really on reading devices, not philosophical debate. You've come here with a set of requirements; people have given you suggestions based on those requirements, but (and I don't mean to be impolite in saying this) you've rejected every piece of practical advice you've been given by people who have an enormous amount of practical experience of using ebook readers, because you dislike the ethics of the companies involved.

Do you want to read, or discuss corporate ethics? If it's the latter, this really isn't the place for it. If it's the former, get any of the mainstream reading devices and I'm sure you'll be happy with it. Readers are devices which generally engender a very high level of user satisfaction. My main advice though would be to stop talking and get reading .

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Our focus here is really on reading devices, not philosophical debate. You've come here with a set of requirements; people have given you suggestions based on those requirements, but (and I don't mean to be impolite in saying this) you've rejected every piece of practical advice you've been given by people who have an enormous amount of practical experience of using ebook readers, because you dislike the ethics of the companies involved.

Do you want to read, or discuss corporate ethics? If it's the latter, this really isn't the place for it. If it's the former, get any of the mainstream reading devices and I'm sure you'll be happy with it. Readers are devices which generally engender a very high level of user satisfaction. My main advice though would be to stop talking and get reading .

People were asking me what I meant. So I told them. And then showed some examples.

[Belle2Be]

While I vaguely understand your 'walled garden' argument, I honestly wouldn't let that jade your decision too much. I use Calibre as my library, and convert everything, azw, pdf or otherwise, into mobi and epub with the click of 2 buttons. Walls are meant to be climbed

Also, I kinda view it the same as the vegetarian argument...Its all well and fine if you don't like meat, but thinking that you're saving a cow because you don't eat a hamburger, well that's a little silly no? If you want to make a stand against the gardens, I would think that the business would care a whole lot more about the opinion of a customer than not.

[HarryT]

The point is, though, that at the end of the day, none of this really matters. You seem to want a 6" eInk device with a Pearl (the latest and best type of eInk) screen and touch capability. So get one. They ALL work well. They ALL allow you to load your own content and to buy commercial eBooks. Their similarities are far greater than their differences. I'm sure you'll be equally happy with any of them.

[Belle2Be]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The point is, though, that at the end of the day, none of this really matters. You seem to want a 6" eInk device with a Pearl (the latest and best type of eInk) screen and touch capability. So get one. They ALL work well. They ALL allow you to load your own content and to buy commercial eBooks. Their similarities are far greater than their differences. I'm sure you'll be equally happy with any of them.

You are so awesome.

[carld]

Going a bit off topic here ...

Originally Posted by Belle2Be

... thinking that you're saving a cow because you don't eat a hamburger, well that's a little silly no?

As a vegetarian for 30 years, no, I don't find that argument silly at all.

[Belle2Be]

Originally Posted by carld

Going a bit off topic here ...



As a vegetarian for 30 years, no, I don't find that argument silly at all.

And you are more than allowed to think that you're making a difference. But you know what? The people who only buy the home-farm meat that's guaranteed to come from non-abused cows are the ones who are swaying the market and making a difference, not the ones who refuse to eat any meat. It's good business to cater to your clientele.

ETA- My BFF is a vegetarian and I love her to death, but I still can't wrap my mind around that mentality. Its just not how I'm wired. So feel free to try to convince me otherwise if you want and the OP doesn't mind the threadjack, I just have heard it all and it still doesn't add up

[HarryT]

This is not the place to discuss vegetarianism. Please take that discussion to the Lounge .