Boy am I now confused

[jasonkchapman]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Unlike you, I don't regard a book as a "lifetime investment". I regard spending $10 on a book as on a par with spending $10 on a takeaway pizza.

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Which puts you in the minority of book readers.

Do you, by any chance, have any numbers to support that? I'm not asking to be a jerk, I'm genuinely interested. I ask because I'm not so sure it's true. One heck of a lot of fiction gets read that is clearly in the "disposable" category--especially category fiction. I see eight miles of used book shelving just in one store. I see used books sold on sidewalk tables all over the city. I see Amazon sellers and ABE doing lots of business. Someone is clearly buying a lot of books and just throwing them away.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Adam B.

Not to be confusing, but I moved that post to a new thread in the Sony forum since he was asking specifically about the Sony Reader and BBeB

No - that's certainly the right thing to do.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

Someone is clearly buying a lot of books and just throwing them away.

I have many friends who read. I have far fewer friends with large book collections. Certainly in the circles in which I circulate, "read and throw away" is a perfectly normal thing to do.

[nekokami]

Martin, congratulations on your purchase! I've had my iLiad for about 6 months now and I enjoy it immensely. I particularly like being able to read outdoors by sunlight.

I've had very good luck being able to read PDFs on mine -- it's one of the main reasons I bought it, rather than staying with the eBookwise 1150 I'd been using previously. Usually I don't even have to rotate to landscape mode, though I do zoom to eliminate margins, and read in "continuous" mode to be sure to get the bottom of every page (otherwise, when you zoom you just see the top part of the page!) I think you'll be fine with your PDFs.

Regarding DRM content, I do know of one case where DRM content has expired: Amazon sold some books in PDF format a while back that apparently had an expiration date, which caught a number of people by surprise. I prefer to buy non-DRM content myself, but if I want to buy a book and only a DRM version is available, I buy the Microsoft .LIT format, typically, because that can be "unlocked" (search for convertlit on the web). I understand the Mobipocket format can now also be unlocked, though I haven't done that yet.

At the present time, many or most books which are available in DRM form are also likely to be available via other "darknet" sources, if you feel you need a backup of a DRM file. (Some books which are out of print but not yet out of copyright are only available this way.) I am not saying this is legal, nor am I advising you to take any particular action with this information. I'm just pointing it out.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

Do you, by any chance, have any numbers to support that?

Nope. At least not any definitive numbers that I can point to.

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

One heck of a lot of fiction gets read that is clearly in the "disposable" category--especially category fiction. I see eight miles of used book shelving just in one store. I see used books sold on sidewalk tables all over the city. I see Amazon sellers and ABE doing lots of business. Someone is clearly buying a lot of books and just throwing them away.

But let's make sure that we are comparing apples to apples here.

The current crop of DRMed eBooks sell for hardcover prices.
- So ignore all the paperbacks you see in the used piles.

I argue that people who buy hardcover books buy them for 1 (or 2) of 2 reasons:
1. They want to read the book now (since the hardcover comes out first).
2. They want to keep that book and re-read it many times over (because hardcovers tend to not wear out as quick).

Those who buy for reason 1 will probably sell their books later.
Which leaves us with those who buy for reason 2.

Now, look at the hardcover sales, minus the hardcovers you see for sale used.

So I see a very large number of people who buy for reason 2 - and will probably get burned on DRMed eBooks.

[jasonkchapman]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

The current crop of DRMed eBooks sell for hardcover prices.
- So ignore all the paperbacks you see in the used piles.

Umm. No, I'm not going to ignore anything. I responded to a specific pair of statements. I quoted the statements to which I was responding. The rest is immaterial.

By the by, the number of used hardcovers I've seen for sale far outstrip the number of used paperbacks I've seen. That's most likely because there's no money in used paperbacks. The Strand is actually up to eighteen miles of shelves now (I quoted their old number of "8" upthread). They're predominately filled with hardcovers.

My personal experience is the same as HarryT's. Most people I know dump most of the non-collectible books they buy, whether they're hardcovers or not. Space is just at too much of a premium.

[sianon]

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

My personal experience is the same as HarryT's. Most people I know dump most of the non-collectible books they buy, whether they're hardcovers or not. Space is just at too much of a premium.

I would agree with this Jason, at least from my own experience. I have many bookshelves, but the tend to contain my photographic books and other such items that are used for reference. I have some fiction that I keep as i constantly re read them. However the majority of what I read is simply, read once and dispose of. If I pay $20 for a novel, I regard it much the same way as going along to the cinema to watch a new release film. It is an item of once off entertainment, therefore whether it is DRM or not is largely irrelevant to me.

Karen

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by sianon

However the majority of what I read is simply, read once and dispose of.

And how do you dispose of it?

Originally Posted by sianon

It is an item of once off entertainment, therefore whether it is DRM or not is largely irrelevant to me.

It is depending on how you dispose of the eBook.

So tell me? Which is of better value?
A) Paying $20, watching a first run movie and then going home?
B) Paying $20, watching a first run movie, getting $10 back as you leave, and then going home?

Most people would pick B). Which is what we have with pBooks today. I pay $20 for a new book, read it, re-sell it and get some money back.

With DRM, you can't do that. You can only throw the book in the trash.

[sianon]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

And how do you dispose of it?

So tell me? Which is of better value?
A) Paying $20, watching a first run movie and then going home?
B) Paying $20, watching a first run movie, getting $10 back as you leave, and then going home?

Well I have never been to see a movie where I have gotten $10 back as I walk out and really cant see a world in which this would occur

As for disposing of print books, some have gone in the trash, some have gone to the local op shop,some have gone on to friends and others have been left in the reception area of my workplace. Point being, I don't really care where they go after I have read them, I have gotten the value from the product that I wanted. Many of the e-books I have purchased have been read and deleted including non DRM content, I am freed from having to physically dispose of the book.

I repeat, reading of fiction is a once off entertainment activity, not an investment for the future, or an activity where I seek to provide the same entertainment experience to others free of cost, or to on sell the product to others to recoup the cost.

Karen

[RWood]

Congratulations Martin, you made a good choice. The screen is amazing. I have the Sony Reader and am coming to Harry's position that size matters.

Since acquiring the Sony last November, I have been collecting electronic copies of many of the books I already had in paper. Part of these are now in the E-Book Upload section at MobileRead. The classics that never go out of fashion are the ones that I can read over again. Few of the modern fiction entries come anywhere near that level. Most are read and toss.

I have been clearing out the bookshelves and the boxes of books in the basement. Some go to friends that have expressed interest in them and the rest go to the local library to do with as they see fit. (What they can't use they sell to buy things they can use.)

Other than classics, reference works, and those in my field; I have seldom reread a book in my life. There are too many good books that I have never read to waste time rereading an average book. Life is too short.

Could I sell the books myself? Sure. Who wants to go to that time and effort on Amazon or eBay? What I would get back is less than what I could earn from a client for the same period of work. If I take it to a used bookstore all I get is a credit that I can exchange for other used books.

There is also one area where ebooks are far less expensive than pbooks. Recently I was about to fly from Washington, DC to LA and saw an interesting book in one of the "list price +10%" type of overpriced shops that always seem to thrive in airports. My business partner was also interested in the same book. While he proceeded to the checkout to buy the book I logged into Sony Connect, bought the book, downloaded it to the Reader, and was reading it by the time he returned from the store. (Yes, I do practice safe WiFi.) OK, so I paid more than Amazon. I also paid less than he did.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by sianon

As for disposing of print books, some have gone in the trash, some have gone to the local op shop,some have gone on to friends and others have been left in the reception area of my workplace.

None of which is permitted with DRMed eBooks.

Originally Posted by sianon

Point being, I don't really care where they go after I have read them, I have gotten the value from the product that I wanted. Many of the e-books I have purchased have been read and deleted including non DRM content, I am freed from having to physically dispose of the book.

If that's how you want to waste your money...

But judging by the number of used eBooks I see on Amazon and such, I'd say that most people want to get the residual value back from their books.

In my case, I would rather pay $20 for a book, read it, sell it used for $10 and then use that $10 to get another book.

If I wanted to read a book and then get rid of it, I'd go to the library where they let me do that for free.

[NatCh]

While it baffles me (since I'm such a pack-rat about books ... well, about everything, actually), I see a lot of folks engaging in that sort of read and release behavior. My mother and aunt buy books, and trade them amongst themselves and then donate them to the library or give them away to some individual person who might find them interesting.

I see what you're saying, rluazon, and I agree that it makes sense, but a lot of folks don't seem to care if they get any investment back on their books. If they can share them, great, but they don't seem to mind much even if they can't.

From that point of view, the perfectly logical, valid point that you're making is just not all that compelling.

[sianon]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

If I wanted to read a book and then get rid of it, I'd go to the library where they let me do that for free.

And wait on list to borrow new release books, if the library chooses to get that book in stock. No thanks as I say, reading of fiction is purely an entertainment experience.

Karen

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by sianon

And wait on list to borrow new release books, if the library chooses to get that book in stock. No thanks as I say, reading of fiction is purely an entertainment experience.

And it's worth $20 to get that book right away? No, I say. Maybe $5 (without DRM), but now we are getting back to what the fair price for an eBook is.

[sianon]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

And it's worth $20 to get that book right away? No, I say. Maybe $5 (without DRM), but now we are getting back to what the fair price for an eBook is.

Yes it is worth it to me. The last new release fiction print book which I purchased cost me $33, yes this will stay in my bookshelf as it is by one of my favorite authors who I tend to reread frequently (as some one else called it, comfort books). The majority of new release e-books are cheaper than I would pay here in Australia for the print equivalent.

Karen