Science fiction writer Joanna Russ dies

[Frida Fantastic]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

I've read it, but I didn't like it so I'm the wrong person to discuss it with.

Heh, understood. It's probably one of the most ridiculous books I've ever read.

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

But how can she be remembered if no one knows what she did?

Whether you've heard of someone or not, no one doesn't mean not me.

You should be taking every opportunity to tell people about her, rather than getting pissy.

Read beyond that post and you'll find we have, in your words, told people about her.

You should be contributing to the thread rather than stopping its flow to hand out spurious advice to those whose expressions of grief you find unbecoming.

The thread was doing well just now. People were actively discussing J.R.'s writing.

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by bashfulbanshee

I finally read The Female Man by Joanna Russ. Here's the soapbox blog opinion post: http://fridafantastic.wordpress.com/...y-joanna-russ/. . . . Let me know if any of you have read it.

I appreciated your tactful review despite your saying here that you found the book to be "one of the most ridiculous" you'd ever read -- an opinion I can respect in the sense that I can understand it.

What I liked was your choice not to impose your opinion as an ultimate judgment. You remained sensitive to the possibility that some readers might enjoy the book.

However, you did make a statement I find to be breathtakingly untrue:

Being a product of second wave feminism (i.e. middle/upper class white woman’s feminism) makes it dated, but some of its points are still relevant. . . .

You seem to be judging second-wave feminism anecdotally rather than historically, perhaps through the experience of encountering older feminists in the field. I don't know that that's fair to the history-changing work of feminists of that generation, who did more for the rights of women of color than (in my incredibly humble opinion) we've done since. Besides which, many feminist activists of that time were working-class.

The tendency to compartmentalize issues of gender in the context of one's own class goes far beyond the second wave. Second-wave feminists made the exact criticism of Virginia Woolf that you've made of Russ. Additionally, you can't look at any political movement in terms of the academics who survive to teach it -- academics who are usually the last ones in the pool. Many, many second-wave feminists were not Caucasian. Audre Lorde was a second-wave feminist.

For my money, Adrienne Rich is perhaps the most cogent second-wave essayist one can read. Beyond mere historical relevance, it's hard to justify reading someone who makes the classic arguments badly; Rich, however, makes them well and is also a crystalline stylist. And here's the thing: Most of her essays in Lies, Secrets and Silence are about women of other cultures, races and classes. She addressed the rape of women in Kosovo and South Africa long before the journalists in the New York Times, and showed with copious footnotes and documentation how the soldiers in those areas had made rape a kind of military regimen when they entered an area in which the idea was to erase a given culture or ethnicity. She also championed the rights of Muslim women in America and still does.

My main criticism of that period of civil rights is that it often separated various prejudice-targeted groups into smaller groups with special considerations, which frequently made larger coalitions impossible and consensus less visible to the public. To make a political difference in a large country, people have to unite, and the period of the 60s-70s seem to have been a time of progress-halting disharmony despite its many breakthroughs. That same disharmony impedes us even today.

=====================

About Russ's flaws:

One thing to consider is that both political content and literary experimentation in SF were cresting when The Female Man was written, and that SF had acquired a kind of pestering look-at-this ostentatiousness. Overemphasizing points that now strike us as obvious was for them an act of negotiation.

You might also look at the unsympathetic depiction of men in the context of that generation's feminism. They felt they had to overemphasize gender issues, and exaggerate male behavior, to make their ideas recognizable and therefore credible. Freedoms we now take for granted weren't in place when that book was written.

[Frida Fantastic]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

You seem to be judging second-wave feminism anecdotally rather than historically, perhaps through the experience of encountering older feminists in the field. I don't know that that's fair to the history-changing work of feminists of that generation, who did more for the rights of women of color than (in my incredibly humble opinion) we've done since. Besides which, many feminist activists of that time were working-class.

The tendency to compartmentalize issues of gender in the context of one's own class goes far beyond the second wave. Second-wave feminists made the exact criticism of Virginia Woolf that you've made of Russ. Additionally, you can't look at any political movement in terms of the academics who survive to teach it -- academics who are usually the last ones in the pool. Many, many second-wave feminists were not Caucasian. Audre Lorde was a second-wave feminist.

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

You might also look at the unsympathetic depiction of men in the context of that generation's feminism. They felt they had to overemphasize gender issues, and exaggerate male behavior, to make their ideas recognizable and therefore credible. Freedoms we now take for granted weren't in place when that book was written.

All fantastic points!

Anecdotal judging second wave feminism: True. Right on the point. Most of my exposure to this topic has been through academia and the Women's Studies department, and I have very mixed feelings about them.

About labelling Russ second wave...not saying other kinds of feminism didn't exist at the time, but Russ doesn't address any other kind of feminism. Not that Russ had to, a person can't deal with all issues, but it is a kind of feminism that is relevant to a subset of people at a specific point in time. It's valuable, I enjoyed the book and thought it was engaging (gave it 4 stars on Goodreads), but its lack of finesse and scope is a limitation in terms of how it could connect to other people. Just coming from a 22 year old, non-white, non-American female reading it in 2011.

I guess I'm not really judging it as a political book, but as a speculative fiction book with social commentary, and I'm assessing it in terms of how a reader in 2011 enjoys it now. I'm glad it was published and read, and I'm glad the little book stood up through the times, and I'm sure it was very relevant, but it just didn't age very well. I enjoyed it heartily, and I think other people will too so long as they keep historical context in mind. I admire Russ and I'll be looking to read her other fiction.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by bashfulbanshee

I guess I'm not really judging it as a political book, but as a speculative fiction book with social commentary, and I'm assessing it in terms of how a reader in 2011 enjoys it now. I'm glad it was published and read, and I'm glad the little book stood up through the times, and I'm sure it was very relevant, but it just didn't age very well. I enjoyed it heartily, and I think other people will too so long as they keep historical context in mind. I admire Russ and I'll be looking to read her other fiction.

I tend to agree, not with enjoying it which is after all a matter of taste but I too am glad it was published and read. Personal opinion about the prose aside the female man did matter, we are enriched by it and that is why I posted about her passing.

She mattered, her work matters, to just let it pass without comment is unthinkable to me.

[Frida Fantastic]

Okay. Edited the blog soapbox opinion post to be more specific. "...Being a product of second wave feminism with a focus on a white American middle-class perspective makes it dated." I didn't mean to mischaracterize the second wave, I just wasn't using specific terms. My bad. Thanks for the feedback. What else of Russ should I check out? She wrote some space opera too, didn't she?

Also, I don't mean to refer to The Female Man as ridiculous in a negative doesn't-make-sense sort of way. It's ridiculous in terms of its format and what it throws at the reader, sort of fantastical-with-no-bounds sort of ridiculous. I'd describe Snow Crash as ridiculous in structure, but frivolous in message. The Female Man is ridiculous in structure, but bitingly funny and intelligent with really valuable content. Kind of like how I'd call Kafka's The Trial absurd. It is absurd, but it's also intelligent, funny, and not frivolous at all. Gnah, language!

[theducks]

I only own 'We who are about to Die', a paperback I bought in 1977.
So I have heard of her.

It is always sad to lose a Pioneering Author

[Xanthe]

Not having heard of her either () I can't join in your discussion of her work.

But any author's death is a sad loss to those readers who enjoy his or her work, both because there won't be any more new books, and the works that do exist have a higher probability of going OOP or not making the transition to ebooks so that new readers will learn about them.

[GoSharks]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

But any author's death is a sad loss to those readers who enjoy his or her work, both because there won't be any more new books, and the works that do exist have a higher probability of going OOP or not making the transition to ebooks so that new readers will learn about them.

I was not a fan of her style nor did I agree with her point of view, but I have great respect for her courage to say what she thought needed to be said. If there is any solace, sometimes an author's passing brings their work back into the public forum...as it has here.

[CleverClothe]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

Whether you've heard of someone or not, no one doesn't mean not me.

Read beyond that post and you'll find we have, in your words, told people about her.

You should be contributing to the thread rather than stopping its flow to hand out spurious advice to those whose expressions of grief you find unbecoming.

The thread was doing well just now. People were actively discussing J.R.'s writing.

So you don't retract your original statement? It bothers me to see people like ps249 mistreated. (BTW, he never said "no one".)

People spend too much time fighting rather than trying to make things better.

[WT Sharpe]

Moderator Notice
This thread is to mourn the death of an author whose life and works struck a deep chord with many of our members. Please be polite, respectful of the mourners, and remain on topic.

Thank you.

[montsnmags]

I've just bought The Female Man, as it sounds like something I'd enjoy (I'm also prompted by the mention of Delany, who is a favorite, though his Nevèrÿon books sit intimidatory on the shelves much like Proust lists my ereader ).

From my position of ignorance, how would authors I enjoy like Margaret Atwood and Sherri S. Tepper sit within this discussion and alongside Joanna Russ? And if I was interested in reading further relevant works in the SF world, what and who would you recommend, whether out of importance or just sheer pleasure? For example, oddly, and somehow, Le Guin has managed to completely pass me by.

Cheers,
Marc