The Population Bomb: How We Survived It - Page 3

vivaldirules · 04-03-2011, 10:58 AM

Eventually, it seems people do whatever they can do because they can do it. Make a nice rule to save something and someone comes along and trashes it just because they can. Discover a "resource" and eventually someone will use it all up because they can. (Does anyone think we won't eventually use every drop of available oil on the planet?) Forget making plans to live by for the sake of the future. At best, I think it delays the inevitable.

Wanna get off this rock and take that kind of practice to some other world? Really??

Please pass the iced tea and doughnuts.

Enkidu of Abydos · 04-03-2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Enkido, I'm glad you are not in charge of decision-making. I said barbaric because I meant it. Please do not presume to translate my words to fit your own little manifesto.

One of my best friends is child 15 of 16. He is a teacher, coach, community leader, and active leader in his church. If his parents had agreed with you, the world would have been deprived of him.

I could not disagree with you more.

I was talking about undeveloped countries, if his parents were well-off or at least middle class (US middle class) they might had been able to take care of them financially.
But can you seriously claim that each one of 16 children in the same family can get the amount of parental / emotional / social attention every child needs and deserves ?
Unless their parents are octopuses it would be VERY hard to acomplish.
It would be an acomplishment just to remember all of their names correctly !
I love kids and want to have kids one day, but I think for the sake of the kids themselves the optimal number is 2 or 3, 4 at the max. (1 is a lonely number).
And I think having 15 children is selfish and irresponsible, even if they love them all utterly.
And you call population control barbaric ? Limitless procreation without rational thinking - that's barbaric ! That's why everyone used to have 15 kids in the dark ages but only have 2.4 on average (in the West) today...

SolRaven · 04-03-2011, 07:53 PM

I think nature, is like water, it always finds it's level. I don't know if this is a global thing, but I've noticed more and more people/couples that are married or in long term relationships that have absolutely no desire to procreate. My parents both came from families of 9 kids each. I have absolutely no desire to have a child and never have. I thought for sure it would kick in at some point, but it hasn't. I also happen to know a lot of people and couples that feel the exact same way. I love children, but I don't want my own at all.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Enkidu of Abydos · 04-03-2011, 08:12 PM

That's true for developed countries, but it has nothing to do with nature rebalancing itself, it's simply a cultural change.
People are becoming more self-centered (for better or worse) and want to have fun and be free for as long as possible. And women who used to be only baby-making machines now want to have careers and enjoy life.
Parenting takes lots of hard work and pain and some people don't think it's worth it (I do !).

SolRaven · 04-03-2011, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

That's true for developed countries, but it has nothing to do with nature rebalancing itself, it's simply a cultural change.
People are becoming more self-centered (for better or worse) and want to have fun and be free for as long as possible. And women who used to be only baby-making machines now want to have careers and enjoy life.
Parenting takes lots of hard work and pain and some people don't think it's worth it (I do !).

Yeah, nature never finds it's balance. That was so silly. Yeah, that's probably true. People in developed nations are known to be self centered and egotistical. I mean really, if a woman doesn't want to make babies there has to be something wrong with her. She's going against god and nature, for sure.
It's okay for a woman's partner to feel the same way, because he's a guy, it's okay for guys not to want babies and to want careers and a choice in how they spend their weekends and time away from work. Men have always been self centered and egotistical, so it's accepted and encouraged. Heaven forbid if a woman has a career and enjoys her life.

Enkidu of Abydos · 04-04-2011, 01:08 AM

OMG, how did you manage to so completely misunderstand my words ?

Where did I say it's wrong for women to want to have careers and enjoy life and not be baby making machines, and that that's against god and nature ? I said women USED TO be regarded as baby making machines, both by men and largely by themselves. Which has now changed (fortunately). Those are simple facts which I was stating, not making a judgement on. And I don't give a damn what's against god or nature ! I don't believe in the first and the second is meant to be surpassed in some things (wearing clothes or being monogamous is not natural for humans !).
And I never said you or anyone else were self centered and egotistical for not wanting to have children !
I said it's a common fact stated by many psychologists and thinkers around the world that modern people (OF BOTH GENDERS !) are becoming more and more centered on their own happiness and pleasure, not just in regards to making babies but in regard to everything.
Read up on the differences between the "survival culture" (in which most people lived until the 20th century) and the "pleasure culture"... Basically in the first people just try to survive and grow enough food or work enough to survive, they're content and happy as long as they have food to eat and rags to wear, even if they work all day long and suffer constantly. Now in the pleasure culture of modern people things are much different, having their basic needs taken care of easily (in developed countries) people expect MUCH more and need much more to be happy and content. For example trips to foreign lands, prestigious careers, perfect relationships with perfect mates and so on...
This one brilliant and famous psychologist I was reading recently says modern people find it so hard to be happy in relationships because they expect too much, they expect perfect partners and the insanely passionate love from romantic novels, and that is just an illusion which doesn't really exist, so they keep on searching and searching.
And that kind of high expectations and high desires (which are an unavoidable effect of a high standard of living) affect (among many other factors of course) people's (both male and female) decisions to have children or not (since that obviously requires lots of sacrifice).
Now you said people are having less children because of nature ?
Nature determines how much rain falls and therefore how much the corn grow, but babies don't grow on rain.
Nature determines how much silt a river deposits on it's shores which being natural fertilizer determines how much the rice grows, but babies don't grow on fertilizer.
It only takes one thing to make a baby in the modern world - for two people to decide they want to have one (as long as they're healthy that is).
So if less and less people are deciding to do so then they're obviously a cultural / sociological / psychological change at hand, whatever it may be. The only physical factor which may be at work (and even that is not natural but human - made) is the measured and proven decrease in average male potency (believed to be caused by polution by artificial fertilizers), that is the average human male has less and less sperms and they're of poorer quality.
Please don't try to paint me as some kind of woman-hating neanderthal who believes men should have careers and woman have babies, because that couldn't be further from the truth.
I believe fathers should devote just as much time to raising children as their mothers, and that both genders should give their children priority over their careers IF they choose to have children, and if not that's their private choice and their right too.
But if too few people in a generation decide to have children than maybe the planners of future development should maybe take that into account and try to incourage people to do so. My country currently has a negative population growth so the government is trying to incourage people to have children with various economic and social measures. Japan also has a problem with a too old population and weak birthrate. But anyway I've gotten off course.
So lets put things right clearly once more - I AM NOT A MISOGYNIST, I am a feminist ! I believe in the equal rights and responsibilites of men and women in all things, except maybe child custody trials (I believe that in such cases where all other factors are equal women should have the advantage for the good of the child because of the primordial biological link a mother and child share), including equal pay and equal career opportunities.
Do I believe people today (of both genders and including MYSELF) are spoiled and self-centered compared to our forefathers ? Hell yeah ! I expect a lot more out of life then just surviving on a little food and wearing rags while living in a wooden hut.
Well anyway, rant over. Now you can throw the stones.

P.S.
Getting involved in these political / sociological debates just gets me wasting a lot of time on typing away for no use every time... Shouldn't have started in the first place but I couldn't resist after that idiocy that writer wrote about "surviving" the population bomb...

SolRaven · 04-04-2011, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

Now you can throw the stones.

Only if they're rubies and emeralds.

Enkidu of Abydos · 04-04-2011, 01:22 AM

Ha ?

SolRaven · 04-04-2011, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

Ha ?

Eh... ?

Enkidu of Abydos · 04-04-2011, 01:32 AM

Well now you've got me all confused. First you want to clobber me for being a neanderthal misogynist, and now you want to shower me with rubies and take me out for a drink ? Is this one of those notorius female mood swings ?

SolRaven · 04-04-2011, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

Well now you've got me all confused. First you want to clobber me for being a neanderthal misogynist, and now you want to shower me with rubies and take me out for a drink ? Is this one of those notorius female mood swings ?

No, I mistook some of your statements, which now I see was just the brevity of them, so it came off a bit curt. The reply was full of such energy, I am helplessly beat down. The only thing that comes to mind is Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

I do believe that all energy is connected and I'm a non theist so... there ya go.

Enkidu of Abydos · 04-04-2011, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolRaven

The reply was full of such energy
I do believe that all energy is connected and I'm a non theist so... there ya go.

Wow... It's nice to be appreciatead. Nice and rare. So thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolRaven

No, I mistook some of your statements, which now I see was just the brevity of them, so it came off a bit curt.

Apology accepted I guess...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolRaven

full of such energy, I am helplessly beat down.

<Enkidu makes an animal growl from deep in the throat> That kind of makes me feel macho proud and horny, like in the way of the ancient game of the male making advances at the female and slowly beating down her defences until she surrenders both romantically and sexually...

Maybe not a very feministic statement, but what can I say, I'm still a guy with guy urges...

So you should be carefull with such statements, which cause the most animalistic of urges to rise up in us guys...

Growl !

P.S.
Maybe I have a light and dark side, one feminist one not, one of reason and one of primal urges ?

P.P.S.
Your ideas of connected energies and nature balancing itself may not be very scientific (I'm a rationalist, sorry

) but they're still beautifull, kind of reminds me of these movies (which are among my favorites) which you should watch maybe if you haven't already :
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119698/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0173840/
because those ideas are very present in those movies...

GeoffC · 04-04-2011, 05:27 AM

Don't forget one of the reasons for large families was so the parents could have at least one or two kids who survived to the next generation.

wyndslash · 04-04-2011, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Eventually, it seems people do whatever they can do because they can do it. Make a nice rule to save something and someone comes along and trashes it just because they can. Discover a "resource" and eventually someone will use it all up because they can. (Does anyone think we won't eventually use every drop of available oil on the planet?) Forget making plans to live by for the sake of the future. At best, I think it delays the inevitable.

Wanna get off this rock and take that kind of practice to some other world? Really??

Please pass the iced tea and doughnuts.

we are a poisonous species :P
greedy, greedy, greedy. at the expense of other human beings :P all for a few pieces or millions of pieces of paper that can't even be eaten (unless you're really desperate for food; there was a news item here about a person who survived in a disaster by eating toilet paper and drinking their urine) when nothing is left on earth but barren dust.

kennyc · 04-04-2011, 06:34 AM

Humanity is a virus on planet earth. It won't end well for us.

04-04-2011, 01:08 AM	#36
Enkidu of Abydos Master of Disaster Posts: 386 Karma: 55466 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Split, Croatia Device: Sony Reader PRS-505	OMG, how did you manage to so completely misunderstand my words ? Where did I say it's wrong for women to want to have careers and enjoy life and not be baby making machines, and that that's against god and nature ? I said women USED TO be regarded as baby making machines, both by men and largely by themselves. Which has now changed (fortunately). Those are simple facts which I was stating, not making a judgement on. And I don't give a damn what's against god or nature ! I don't believe in the first and the second is meant to be surpassed in some things (wearing clothes or being monogamous is not natural for humans !). And I never said you or anyone else were self centered and egotistical for not wanting to have children ! I said it's a common fact stated by many psychologists and thinkers around the world that modern people (OF BOTH GENDERS !) are becoming more and more centered on their own happiness and pleasure, not just in regards to making babies but in regard to everything. Read up on the differences between the "survival culture" (in which most people lived until the 20th century) and the "pleasure culture"... Basically in the first people just try to survive and grow enough food or work enough to survive, they're content and happy as long as they have food to eat and rags to wear, even if they work all day long and suffer constantly. Now in the pleasure culture of modern people things are much different, having their basic needs taken care of easily (in developed countries) people expect MUCH more and need much more to be happy and content. For example trips to foreign lands, prestigious careers, perfect relationships with perfect mates and so on... This one brilliant and famous psychologist I was reading recently says modern people find it so hard to be happy in relationships because they expect too much, they expect perfect partners and the insanely passionate love from romantic novels, and that is just an illusion which doesn't really exist, so they keep on searching and searching. And that kind of high expectations and high desires (which are an unavoidable effect of a high standard of living) affect (among many other factors of course) people's (both male and female) decisions to have children or not (since that obviously requires lots of sacrifice). Now you said people are having less children because of nature ? Nature determines how much rain falls and therefore how much the corn grow, but babies don't grow on rain. Nature determines how much silt a river deposits on it's shores which being natural fertilizer determines how much the rice grows, but babies don't grow on fertilizer. It only takes one thing to make a baby in the modern world - for two people to decide they want to have one (as long as they're healthy that is). So if less and less people are deciding to do so then they're obviously a cultural / sociological / psychological change at hand, whatever it may be. The only physical factor which may be at work (and even that is not natural but human - made) is the measured and proven decrease in average male potency (believed to be caused by polution by artificial fertilizers), that is the average human male has less and less sperms and they're of poorer quality. Please don't try to paint me as some kind of woman-hating neanderthal who believes men should have careers and woman have babies, because that couldn't be further from the truth. I believe fathers should devote just as much time to raising children as their mothers, and that both genders should give their children priority over their careers IF they choose to have children, and if not that's their private choice and their right too. But if too few people in a generation decide to have children than maybe the planners of future development should maybe take that into account and try to incourage people to do so. My country currently has a negative population growth so the government is trying to incourage people to have children with various economic and social measures. Japan also has a problem with a too old population and weak birthrate. But anyway I've gotten off course. So lets put things right clearly once more - I AM NOT A MISOGYNIST, I am a feminist ! I believe in the equal rights and responsibilites of men and women in all things, except maybe child custody trials (I believe that in such cases where all other factors are equal women should have the advantage for the good of the child because of the primordial biological link a mother and child share), including equal pay and equal career opportunities. Do I believe people today (of both genders and including MYSELF) are spoiled and self-centered compared to our forefathers ? Hell yeah ! I expect a lot more out of life then just surviving on a little food and wearing rags while living in a wooden hut. Well anyway, rant over. Now you can throw the stones. P.S. Getting involved in these political / sociological debates just gets me wasting a lot of time on typing away for no use every time... Shouldn't have started in the first place but I couldn't resist after that idiocy that writer wrote about "surviving" the population bomb... Last edited by Enkidu of Abydos; 04-04-2011 at 01:20 AM.

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04-03-2011, 10:58 AM	#31
vivaldirules When's Doughnut Day? Posts: 10,059 Karma: 13675475 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Houston, TX, US Device: Sony PRS-505, iPad	Eventually, it seems people do whatever they can do because they can do it. Make a nice rule to save something and someone comes along and trashes it just because they can. Discover a "resource" and eventually someone will use it all up because they can. (Does anyone think we won't eventually use every drop of available oil on the planet?) Forget making plans to live by for the sake of the future. At best, I think it delays the inevitable. Wanna get off this rock and take that kind of practice to some other world? Really?? Please pass the iced tea and doughnuts.

04-03-2011, 07:53 PM	#33
SolRaven Wizard Posts: 2,214 Karma: 12796976 Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Sunshine State Device: Clara, Voyage, Oasis, Paperwhite & PRS-650	I think nature, is like water, it always finds it's level. I don't know if this is a global thing, but I've noticed more and more people/couples that are married or in long term relationships that have absolutely no desire to procreate. My parents both came from families of 9 kids each. I have absolutely no desire to have a child and never have. I thought for sure it would kick in at some point, but it hasn't. I also happen to know a lot of people and couples that feel the exact same way. I love children, but I don't want my own at all. Has anyone else noticed this?

04-03-2011, 08:12 PM	#34
Enkidu of Abydos Master of Disaster Posts: 386 Karma: 55466 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Split, Croatia Device: Sony Reader PRS-505	That's true for developed countries, but it has nothing to do with nature rebalancing itself, it's simply a cultural change. People are becoming more self-centered (for better or worse) and want to have fun and be free for as long as possible. And women who used to be only baby-making machines now want to have careers and enjoy life. Parenting takes lots of hard work and pain and some people don't think it's worth it (I do !).

04-04-2011, 01:22 AM	#38
Enkidu of Abydos Master of Disaster Posts: 386 Karma: 55466 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Split, Croatia Device: Sony Reader PRS-505	Ha ?

04-04-2011, 01:32 AM	#40
Enkidu of Abydos Master of Disaster Posts: 386 Karma: 55466 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Split, Croatia Device: Sony Reader PRS-505	Well now you've got me all confused. First you want to clobber me for being a neanderthal misogynist, and now you want to shower me with rubies and take me out for a drink ? Is this one of those notorius female mood swings ?

04-04-2011, 05:27 AM	#43
GeoffC Chocolate Grasshopper ... Posts: 27,599 Karma: 20821184 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Scotland Device: Muse HD , Cybook Gen3 , Pocketbook 302 (Black) , Nexus 10: wife has PW	Don't forget one of the reasons for large families was so the parents could have at least one or two kids who survived to the next generation.

04-04-2011, 06:34 AM	#45
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,903 Karma: 119230421 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire	Humanity is a virus on planet earth. It won't end well for us.

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