Price drop brings out new critics

[andym]

Can I say, as someone who isn't a Sony owner, that I think it's a bit unfair to blame either Sony or Adobe for the 'pdf problem'. The 'pdf problem' stems from designers who still think in terms of print design and who use pdfs precisely because it gives them rather than readers control over how the document looks. The same problem bedevils web design (as anyone who has ever used handheld to read website will tell you). That said gving readers only one choice (reducing the size of the document) seems like a mistake - but may have been dictated by what they were capable of doing.

[athlonkmf]

I don't promote the reader, nor do I dispell it. I've shown it to others, and those who liked to read thought it was great, those who doesn't don't find it interesting.
Let people decide for their own if they need one or not. It certainly won't be a hype thing where everyone wants one anyway.

Originally Posted by HarryT

PDFRasterfarian takes a lot of processing power - it would be way too slow to run on the Reader's low-power, slow, CPU. Also - and please correct me if I'm wrong - but doesn't it need a certain amount of "manual" tweaking to give good results with a given PDF file? Could it be used as an automated tool which would work well on all PDF files?

Yes, PDFrasterfarian and PDFread takes tremendous CPU-power. I now have a Quad (that's 4 ) core CPU and still then it takes awhile to finish a book.
But yes and now for the manual tweaking. It's a one-time thing to get the setting you like and then it can be done all the time for all books.

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Okay, then why isn't it included in the Connect software?

Heck, why did we have to wait for independent developers to come out with all the conversion software? Why couldn't Sony have come up with them?

I, for one, only considered the Sony reader after I learned about the various formats I could convert from. I would not have bought the Reader otherwise.

P.S. Harry, I don't mean to snipe at you. It's just the irritation I feel with the software limitations Sony deliberately used to cripple a really nice piece of hardware.

Actually, there are NO gadgets I've ever bought that come with all of the best tools you'll ever need. My MP3-players don't have MP3-creating/conversion software. My camera's don't have a good (fast & easy) image viewer program, nor has it a good (featurefull) editing program.
And I'm glad they don't because in the end, it will be me who's paying for those extra programs.



-------------------

BTW. I just noticed that the connect site just added "popular titles" like DaVinci Code. This might attract the common readers.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by athlonkmf

Actually, there are NO gadgets I've ever bought that come with all of the best tools you'll ever need. My MP3-players don't have MP3-creating/conversion software. My camera's don't have a good (fast & easy) image viewer program, nor has it a good (featurefull) editing program.
And I'm glad they don't because in the end, it will be me who's paying for those extra programs.

I don't expect Sony to provide the best tools, only the basic ones. Though, given how bad the Connect software is, I suppose I should be glad they did not.

You can get MP3 conversion anywhere because everyone uses it. You can get the image viewer anywhere. The difference here is that Sony decided to limit us to only the two formats, a DRM one that only Sony sells, and another one that they have yet to release the specs for (I think).

Ponder this: Do you really think that the SWEs at Sony didn't already have some variation of the html,txt,rtf to lrf software before the Reader was released? Why couldn't they have put it up on the Connect Store?

[athlonkmf]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I don't expect Sony to provide the best tools, only the basic ones. Though, given how bad the Connect software is, I suppose I should be glad they did not.

You can get MP3 conversion anywhere because everyone uses it. You can get the image viewer anywhere. The difference here is that Sony decided to limit us to only the two formats, a DRM one that only Sony sells, and another one that they have yet to release the specs for (I think).

Ponder this: Do you really think that the SWEs at Sony didn't already have some variation of the html,txt,rtf to lrf software before the Reader was released? Why couldn't they have put it up on the Connect Store?

No, you can get MP3 conversion anywhere NOW because everyone has it.
You get a image viewer anywhere NOW because everyone has a digicam.

When I bought the first (2nd gen) MP3-player, I didn't get a MP3-conversion and with windows 98 back then (without even the first service pack), it wasn't easy to come by too. But luckily, the early adaptor that I am, was able to get a trial version of audiograbber somewhere. Which I had to close and open a couple of times before a CD is completely converted (the trial version only converts 5 random songs or so for you in one session)And I had to use a 3rd party tool to transfer mp3s in it too. (yes, gasp... the mp3player wasn't even recognized as a removable drive)


When I bought my first digicam (2nd gen too), there was still no built in image viewer as we're still using windows 98 too. I had to get my hand on a cracked ACDsee too as the stock image program sucks.

The same applies for the Sony Reader. It's a novelty, not many works with it and there is no ebookstandard yet so there aren't any companies who are willing to write programs for the sony reader standards.

Only, and ONLY when ebook readers are there for the common public and there are so many competition that a standard format is done, THEN you can have the comfort of easy to use gadgets. Because maybe the next windows will have a standard "print to ebook"-functionality built in. Or the Mac would have a "save as optimized ebook"-button somewhere.
Until then, just live up with the quirks and enjoy the gadget that everyone around you envies but still thinks your nuts for paying so much for it.

[RSaunders]

Originally Posted by athlonkmf

Yes, PDFrasterfarian and PDFread takes tremendous CPU-power. I now have a Quad (that's 4 ) core CPU and still then it takes awhile to finish a book.
But yes and now for the manual tweaking. It's a one-time thing to get the setting you like and then it can be done all the time for all books.

Sure, if these functions were in the software provided with the Reader, I could ignore the CPU time penalty. The biggest PDF support problem is the lack of support for PDF eBooks. We wouldn't have to wonder if the CONNECT store had The_DaVinci_Code, or some other book, because we could buy it from all the other eBook vendors. We can't get the tools we need because Adobe and Sony would have to make the tools for publishers to have confidence that their DRM wishes were upheld. Not that I think they have reasonable DRM desires, but the Reader will always have source issues a long as it requires a Sony business deal with every publisher. Those folks already made deals with Adobe, what do they want another contract to maybe sell a few copies to a very small population. As a member of that population, I have to be willing to see their business position.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by athlonkmf

No, you can get MP3 conversion anywhere NOW because everyone has it.
You get a image viewer anywhere NOW because everyone has a digicam.

When I bought the first (2nd gen) MP3-player, I didn't get a MP3-conversion and with windows 98 back then (without even the first service pack), it wasn't easy to come by too. But luckily, the early adaptor that I am, was able to get a trial version of audiograbber somewhere. Which I had to close and open a couple of times before a CD is completely converted (the trial version only converts 5 random songs or so for you in one session)And I had to use a 3rd party tool to transfer mp3s in it too. (yes, gasp... the mp3player wasn't even recognized as a removable drive)


When I bought my first digicam (2nd gen too), there was still no built in image viewer as we're still using windows 98 too. I had to get my hand on a cracked ACDsee too as the stock image program sucks.

The same applies for the Sony Reader. It's a novelty, not many works with it and there is no ebook standard yet so there aren't any companies who are willing to write programs for the sony reader standards.

Only, and ONLY when ebook readers are there for the common public and there are so many competition that a standard format is done, THEN you can have the comfort of easy to use gadgets. Because maybe the next windows will have a standard "print to ebook"-functionality built in. Or the Mac would have a "save as optimized ebook"-button somewhere.
Until then, just live up with the quirks and enjoy the gadget that everyone around you envies but still thinks your nuts for paying so much for it.

The only quibble I have with your historical comparison is that the Sony Reader is not the first ebook reading device - not by a long shot. If you want to compare the Reader to an MP3 player, then the closest would be the first Ipod.

After you think about it, maybe you'll understand why I feel that Sony could have done so much more.

[athlonkmf]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

The only quibble I have with your historical comparison is that the Sony Reader is not the first ebook reading device - not by a long shot. If you want to compare the Reader to an MP3 player, then the closest would be the first Ipod.

After you think about it, maybe you'll understand why I feel that Sony could have done so much more.

Unfortunately, the sony reader is merely a 2nd gen ebook reader using the eink technology, and thus has it's own limitations.

If you take all other ebook devices like pda's, laptops, tablet pcs into account, then it'd be like comparing mp3 players with a walkman.

And my comparison is also correct, because with each new technology/gadget out, it takes at least 3 generations before the required software reaches a mature state.

The MD-player got good after the 3rd generation. Small size, long playtime.
The MP3-player got good after the 3rd generation. The free tools hooked on. Windows 2000 recognized the player as removable HDD.

When the 3rd generation reader comes (and bookeen seems to be leading the pack), conversion tools are plenty. And see now: we've got PDFread, PDFrasterfarian for PDF-conversions. You've got mine and several other image-converting programs. You've got bookdesigner. Other OSes besides windows can still use the reader with libprs and other multiplatform tools.
When the 3rd gen launches, those buyers won't have trouble getting the software. It's all around the internet then.

This is all due to the efforts and pain of ourselves as the early adaptors. And luckily, a lot of these people are also on the edge of technology, able to write software and such, hacking a new route for other generation devices..

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by athlonkmf

Unfortunately, the sony reader is merely a 2nd gen ebook reader using the eink technology, and thus has it's own limitations.

If you take all other ebook devices like pda's, laptops, tablet pcs into account, then it'd be like comparing mp3 players with a walkman.

And my comparison is also correct, because with each new technology/gadget out, it takes at least 3 generations before the required software reaches a mature state.

The MD-player got good after the 3rd generation. Small size, long playtime.
The MP3-player got good after the 3rd generation. The free tools hooked on. Windows 2000 recognized the player as removable HDD.

When the 3rd generation reader comes (and bookeen seems to be leading the pack), conversion tools are plenty. And see now: we've got PDFread, PDFrasterfarian for PDF-conversions. You've got mine and several other image-converting programs. You've got bookdesigner. When the 3rd gen launches, those buyers won't have trouble getting the software. It's all around the internet then.

First of all, the Eink display is irrelevant to the discussion of file format and conversion software.

The Sony Reader is not really a second gen ebook reader when you consider the history of ebooks, though I will agree it is a second gen dedicated ebook device.

The first gen ebook reader was the Apple Newton. The second gen (and maybe third) is the various Palm PDAs. And then there is the Franklin Ebookman, various Gemstar devices, the original Cybook, the Sony Librie, and a couple others I can't name. So the Sony Reader is at least a fifth gen piece of hardware - maybe more.

If you want to look at it in terms of software, Mobipocket started in 2000. Palm eReader software is even older (I think).

When the Ipod came out, MP3 was not yet the standard for digital music players. A lot of devices used their own goofy format. Similarly, Sony could have picked Mobipocket, Palm Ereader, or MSReader, and helped make it the standard for ebook devices. Instead, they invented their own, and further splintered the market.

With the Ipod came Itunes. Sony (unfortunately) gave us the Connect store. Itunes will take many different formats, and convert them to work well on the Ipod. The Connect Store is a pioneer in customer disservice, particularly in developing the category of "ebooks we have that we won't tell you we have".

The point I am trying to make: We should not consider ourselves early adopters of ebooks because we own a Sony Reader. The PRS-500 could have been the Ipod for ebook devices. It's not because Sony screwed up.

[Nate the great]

I do think the the next Cybook has the potential to be the Ipod of ebook readers because it does Mobipocket as well as multiple independent formats.

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I do think the the next Cybook has the potential to be the Ipod of ebook readers because it does Mobipocket as well as multiple independent formats.

The problem with Cybook is that it's from an obscure French company without the marketing muscle of Sony. Unless some powerhouse company (Amazon, Google...) picks it up it's going to be a limited reach item like the Iliad.
Which store are you going to be able to walk in and test the Cybook?
For me and you and people here it does not matter that much, but to reach critical mass you'll have to be able to pick it up from Wal Mart. Sony is not there yet, but as of now is the only device with the potential to get there.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Liviu_5

The problem with Cybook is that it's from an obscure French company without the marketing muscle of Sony. Unless some powerhouse company (Amazon, Google...) picks it up it's going to be a limited reach item like the Iliad.
Which store are you going to be able to walk in and test the Cybook?
For me and you and people here it does not matter that much, but to reach critical mass you'll have to be able to pick it up from Wal Mart. Sony is not there yet, but as of now is the only device with the potential to get there.

True, but I hope there will be funds to advertise on ebook seller websites. That is where the potential customer base is already located.

I consider my self to be an early adopter of ebooks not because I own a Sony Reader, but because I was reading ebooks on my PDA 3 and a half years ago. I was already an ebook consumer when I started considering an Eink devices.

[athlonkmf]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

First of all, the Eink display is irrelevant to the discussion of file format and conversion software.

The Sony Reader is not really a second gen ebook reader when you consider the history of ebooks, though I will agree it is a second gen dedicated ebook device.

The first gen ebook reader was the Apple Newton. The second gen (and maybe third) is the various Palm PDAs. And then there is the Franklin Ebookman, various Gemstar devices, the original Cybook, the Sony Librie, and a couple others I can't name. So the Sony Reader is at least a fifth gen piece of hardware - maybe more.

The Eink technology is very important in this discussion, as it's has it's own pro's and cons which reflects to the used software and hardware.
Higher resolution at smaller screens, and extremely low power consumption. And to keep that low power consumption, a relatively weak CPU had to be used, which doesn't allow on-demand processing of PDF's as proposed here (just like there are no MP3players that had a builtin CD-rip function)

The point of the story is, there can be no "ebookreaderhype" as long as there isn't one widely accepted standard. And without a widely accepted standard no company can include enough convertingsoftware, because that's simply too expensive. They have to develop it themselves (and the connect reader already does it's stuff for DOCs). So until then... be satisfied with the efforts of the community.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by athlonkmf

The point of the story is, there can be no "ebookreaderhype" as long as there isn't one widely accepted standard. And without a widely accepted standard no company can include enough convertingsoftware, because that's simply too expensive. They have to develop it themselves (and the connect reader already does it's stuff for DOCs). So until then... be satisfied with the efforts of the community.

Yes! You are completely correct. There can be no hype until there is a standard.

And one of my gripes with Sony is that they blew their chance to make a standard. If they had chosen to use an existing DRM format instead of creating their own, that would have become the standard.

A little background: I am a computer science major at public university. I just finished my bachelor's and am now working on my master's.

Last night I started thinking about how I would write the conversion software. If we had the specs for the input and the output formats, creating a one to one converter is not that difficult. It's on the level of a programming project in a certain senior level CS class.

I would like to add that I don't mean to trivialize KovidGoyal's work. I deeply respect and admire him for taking the time to write the conversion software. I also admire him because he had to work blind; we still don't know the specs for lrf.

[athlonkmf]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Yes! You are completely correct. There can be no hype until there is a standard.

And one of my gripes with Sony is that they blew their chance to make a standard. If they had chosen to use an existing DRM format instead of creating their own, that would have become the standard.

A little background: I am a computer science major at public university. I just finished my bachelor's and am now working on my master's.

Last night I started thinking about how I would write the conversion software. If we had the specs for the input and the output formats, creating a one to one converter is not that difficult. It's on the level of a programming project in a certain senior level CS class.

I would like to add that I don't mean to trivialize KovidGoyal's work. I deeply respect and admire him for taking the time to write the conversion software. I also admire him because he had to work blind; we still don't know the specs for lrf.

Thing is, Sony would never had a chance to be "THE standard". Not with it's goodwill garnered with their rootkit-affaire.
Just like WMV and RealMedia never became the standard for protable digital music devices. WMV is from the big bad company, and no matter how powerful, it didn't stand a chance. RealMedia got punched to the ground because of their own stupid act to throw in every imaginable ad into their program.
While MP3 had free convertors and players (winamp)

I'm a software developer myself for quite some time, and when I made my manga2ebook, i deliberately did not create a complete conversion tool that would create one file in one session (IE, from images to lrf). Because I'm sure that when newer devices are out, the fileformat will shift.
Therefor I chose to program something that could do intermediate formats and flexible enough to use it for more situations.
In the end, it creates, enhances and resize images to dimensions I can set.
And it create a document that, like it or not, is still the most commonly accepted format: PDF.

And if anything new comes out in the future, I can simply use those new to be made PDF2xxx tools to convert to the required format then.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by athlonkmf

Thing is, Sony would never had a chance to be "THE standard". Not with it's goodwill garnered with their rootkit-affaire.
Just like WMV and RealMedia never became the standard for protable digital music devices. WMV is from the big bad company, and no matter how powerful, it didn't stand a chance. RealMedia got punched to the ground because of their own stupid act to throw in every imaginable ad into their program.
While MP3 had free convertors and players (winamp)

Yes, that is exactly why BBeB will never be a standard. That's why they should have picked someone else's (device independent) DRM format (like Mobipocket) and used it instead of developing their own.