I'm encouraging e-book publishing Out There.

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

I'm a professional woodworker. I love woods and what I can do with them. The work I do will give that wood years of existence because of its beauty and value, probably longer than those tree's life times! I'm a dead tree lover for that reason but not for paper. And there are papers made from other vegetals than trees!
That's why I'd call'em paperheads instead.

Sorry to quote myself I felt there was more to add.

If dead trees were to be taken away, 60% of our north american type dwellings would disappear. A house with no backbone wouldn't be comfortable would it?

What we need are sustainable harvest practices, substitutes for wood with other short lived vegetals, non toxic industrial processes for the manufacture of paper, non toxic inks and more ways of recycling.

If we are to promote the ebook it is not by the negative process of antagonizing the proponents for paper books but by the positive action of displaying the virtues and advantages of the ebook. Derogatory comments should be restrained, even amongst ourselves.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

The way to encourage someone to try a new thing is not to tell them how stupid they are, but to show them how your way is smart. Always remember that when discussing any topic, but especially when discussing new technologies... it's far too easy to call someone a Luddite, and automatically sour them against you, and by extension, your argument.

[NatCh]

Something I've noticed is that a lot of folks seem to subconsciously equate "there might be a better way" with "you've been doing it wrong all this time."

Most of the time, improvement is more a sign of increased potential or capability, rather than an indication that the old way was bad.

Perhaps we can come up with some approaches that focus more on the increased potentials and capabilities ....

[yvanleterrible]

The thing is, the old way is not that bad! It needs refreshing and a new direction. This is where we come in, MR is a great tool for this.

I know of experience that youth in its excitement shortens judgement calls to black & white. Life is not so. It is of many, many shades of gray sometimes indistinguishable from one another. Nuancing is the name of the game.


Oh yeah! I know you've heard it before...sigh!

[Xenophon]

@Anais9000:

I was curious about the problems you spotted in the copy of 'Castle Richmond' that's up at PG, so I asked my sister (who is one of the PtB at DP). Here's what she said in response (slightly edited by me -- square brackets and ... are mine):

Yup, that is a DP text but it is a very early one. It was posted to PG in Sept. 2002 as far as I can tell, which is well before slashdot, and certainly well before we had developed the tools we use now, much less splitting into the four rounds.

I don't think we have access to the scans from that book to check the "errors" against. The way to get errors corrected is to submit them to errata@pglaf.org. Some of those are clear errors, but some could be the result of slightly different editions of the book. It's only an error if the text doesn't match what the book had. Since we weren't including publication info at that point, and since I don't know whether we have the scans (some of the earliest ones appear to have been irretriavably lost) it's hard to verify one way or another. But changes like

Sir Thomas is very ill, and so also is Lady Fitzgerald
Sir Thomas is very well, and so also is Lady Fitzgerald ---- yikes!!!

had not done so through absolute fear
had not done so through any absolute fear

are entirely likely to be variations in the edition, rather than errors from the text.
[SNIP]
[Folks] who criticize DP for leaving errors, ... usually pick on early books like this.

Please ask that person to find similar errors in a text with a PG number over 10,000. By then most of our tools were in place and our quality was much higher.

I hope that helps explain things...

So... What do you think of the quality of books that have come through DP more recently? And have you submitted those errors to PG? (Note that DP doesn't have any special control after the point where they submit the book to PG.)

Xenophon

[Anais9000]

I don't submit the errors to Gutenberg, because I have a database closing in on half a million errors. If I submitted them, each would go something like this:

PLEASE NOTE OBVIOUS ERROR:

Sir Thomas is very ill, and so also is Lady Fitzgerald
Sir Thomas is very well, and so also is Lady Fitzgerald

>> entirely likely to be variations in the edition, rather than errors from the text

Anyone who reads the book will see that no one is discussing anyone's health. Owen Fitzgerald is in effect saying, it's all VERY WELL to mention Sir Thomas, or Lady Fitzgerald, etc. etc. but blah blah blah

Instead, I'm trying to work my way in through DP so I can make the suggestion that
a) books not be submitted so quickly, and/or that
b) some channel is made available for correcting already submitted texts. [In this connection, your statement "DP doesn't have any special control after the point where they submit the book to PG" seems bizarre to me, since who does have control of the text, if not the submitter?] and/or
c) a better process, using digitally-generated audio, like the one I use, be added to DP.


You say: "Please ask that person to find similar errors in a text with a PG number over 10,000."

OK, here's a book by Trollope's mom:

Domestic Manners of the Americans
Author: Fanny Trollope
Release Date: November 30, 2003 [EBook #10345]

I took a quick look and found these -- which are hard to argue with, among many many many others which it's easy to argue with, if you're of a mind to. Though I guess I can expect to be told there are alternate versions where ships have "stem galleries" and "moutains" rise up from the sea.



every portly dame of the set is as exclusive in her principles as the excluded but amiable Quandroons

every portly dame of the set is as exclusive in her principles as a lady
patroness. The other set consists of the excluded but amiable Quandroons

and forms an admirable point of defence; I should suppose, no city could boast.

and forms an admirable point of defence; but in these piping days of peace, it is converted into a public promenade, and one more beautiful, I should suppose, no city could boast.


himself pretty well acquaninted with the point
himself pretty well acquainted with the point

and I except a good sight of them
and I expect a good sight of them

the distance of about a dozen yard from the spot
the distance of about a dozen yards from the spot

nor is this wish to profit by it all peculiar to the English
nor is this wish to profit by it, at all peculiar to the English

They are rarely very double,
They are very rarely double,

found among the moutains
found among the mountains

were below the stem gallery
were below the stern gallery

round a new corner, to aid him in
round a new comer, to aid him in

the aspects of the heavens by night
the aspect of the heavens by night

on the 26th January, 1828,
on the 26th of January, 1828,

seen growing in the water many feet deep
seen growing in water many feet deep

possession of it as soon at it could be got ready
possession of it as soon as it could be got ready

both to facilitate their construction and render them necessary
both to facilitate their construction and to render them necessary

glass of gin cocktail, or egging,
glass of gin cocktail, or egg-nog,

at any hour of night
at any hour of the night

on the other side the Atlantic
on the other side of the Atlantic

is impossible to imaging any thing more striking
is impossible to imagine any thing more striking

flame, brimestone, molten lead
flame, brimstone, molten lead

through the streets at nights,
through the streets at night,

quantities of this water-fruit
quantities of this watery fruit

the warlike manifesto called Declaration of Independence
the warlike manifesto called the Declaration of Independence

the grim store-like forests of Ohio.
the grim stove-like forests of Ohio.

[JSWolf]

The problem I'm having is finding a book in DP that I actually won't fall asleep while proofing.

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Anais9000

[SNIP]
Instead, I'm trying to work my way in through DP so I can make the suggestion that
a) books not be submitted so quickly, and/or that
b) some channel is made available for correcting already submitted texts. [In this connection, your statement "DP doesn't have any special control after the point where they submit the book to PG" seems bizarre to me, since who does have control of the text, if not the submitter?] and/or
c) a better process, using digitally-generated audio, like the one I use, be added to DP.


You say: "Please ask that person to find similar errors in a text with a PG number over 10,000."

OK, here's a book by Trollope's mom:

Domestic Manners of the Americans
Author: Fanny Trollope
Release Date: November 30, 2003 [EBook #10345]

[SNIP]

Anaias9000 -- I'd like to put you in touch with my sister. Drop me a PM so I can do so.

Here's what she had to say about your latest--

Originally Posted by Xenophon's sister

Yes, please put this person in touch with me directly.

The example he chose for later than 10K is not a DP book. It was produced by an independent producer. Please mention that publically (if his response to you was public, that is), and that while DP provides most of the books at PG, we don't provide all of them so even for books with PG numbers larger than 10K there may be errors. There are certainly errors in the DP books, even now, but they should be few and far between. All PG books that are prepared by DP say so in the credit line near the beginning of the book.

Since he talks about wanting DP not to post so quickly, he obviously doesn't know much about us, and is completely out of touch with all the workflow issues we are having that make that statement ludicrous. Further, he doesn't understand that once PG starts distributing a text, they have to take responsibility for it. There's no telling, years later, whether the original producer will still be around.

There's a wide perception that PG texts are full of errors. DP has put a huge amount of energy into making high quality texts and hopefully we'll be able to change the image. [SNIP]
Thanks!

Juliet

[Anais9000]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

The example he chose for later than 10K is not a DP book.
I'd like to put you in touch with my sister. Drop me a PM so I can do so.

My apologies for choosing a book that was not produced by DP.

To test your assertion about the quality of DP books, I selected a book at random from the list of books completed by DP on their own Completed Books page, and chose a random chapter, Chapter 10, and read two chapters.

Title: The Inheritors
Author: Joseph Conrad
Ford M. Hueffer
Release Date: February 3, 2005 [EBook #14888]
Produced by Clare Boothby, Graeme Mackreth and the PG Online Distributed Proofreading Team.

- - - - - -

Here are the errors:

Tu veux me jouer centre elle.
Tu veux me jouer contre elle.

tu vas voir ce que fen vais faire
tu vas voir ce que j'en vais faire

With a smiling "Don't mention," I tried
With a smiling "Don't mention it," I tried

A has Coignet
A bas Coignet

He's getting touched by the Whites you know.
He's getting touched by the Whites, you know.

a vision of light, theatening, sinister
a vision of light, threatening, sinister

by-ways of an immense world they must do murder
by-ways of an immense world, they must do murder

I must have dine with it all;
I must have done with it all;

laying down their priceless lives to root out ... to root our...
laying down their priceless lives to root out ... to root out...

It didn't matter to me.
It didn't very much matter to me.

They rested on the vacuously Bonaparte prince,
They rested on the vacuous Bonaparte prince,

"Oh, you may speak French," she said carelessly.
"Oh, you may speak French," she said, carelessly.

---------------

This seems better than the examples given previously, but that's because I explicitly selected examples of poor proofreading earlier. This seems typically bad, exactly as would be expected of a randomly selected example.

I would be delighted to receive a private message from you, or a public message, or mail at anais9000 at babblebooks DOTT com, if DP would be interested in adding this technology for assisted proofreading to their site. As an example, I used it to knock off about 200 pages on their site (as Anais9000) yesterday and today.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Well, just like here, the e-book publishing discussion seems to have wound down over at Chronicles, too. One interesting note: One of the posters mentioned something we've talked about over here, that e-book reading may end up taking a back-seat to e-newspapers catching on first, and spreading e-readers amongst the general population faster than book reading.

Does anyone think the Sony Reader would be well-suited to daily newspaper reading? It is already set up for web connectivity, and it seems that it could easily be configured to download periodicals on a subscription basis.

They also discussed the issue of ferreting out the good stuff from all the material out there (their supposition being that most e-books are junk, something I never managed to convince them otherwise on). They see the traditional publishing industry as one that acts to separate the wheat from the chaff, so the reader doesn't have to. Personally, I find this logic flawed, but that's the general opinion.

[yvanleterrible]

I think the reader would have to support animation to browse through large displays and HTML navigation to reach said papers. The only two ways that immediately pop up to mind, where papers could be used on a small screen are first: having a paper that can reformat itself, or second an Apple iPhone type of display that allows you to move about a big page and blow it up to make it legible.

Neither of those can be done on the reader and if they could, the power management advantage would be lost. The Sony reader was intended for books only and I'm afraid it will remain so.

Today's eink displays are pretty much like the first LCD watches of lore. Who knew then that LCD would have supported colo(u)r and better still, animation.

We will have to bite down and wait a good while again for the better iterations of eink that will birth that famous 'sec tablet'.