You read a book and it stinks. What do you do? - Page 3

astra · 06-30-2007, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

Amazing that he manages to sell so many books, with that being the case.

I agree, it is a mystery

that I am going to try to solve once he has finished the series

NatCh · 06-30-2007, 11:54 AM

mogui · 06-30-2007, 01:45 PM

So what does anybody think of PC Hodgell?

I do not have a good rapport with the fantasy genre, but my daughter is very big on Hodgell. I read one, I forget which, and I kind of got lost keeping track of who was who and who could do what.

Science fiction is easier and more comfortable for me, but I wondered. Is it just me? Or is she hard to read?

nekokami · 06-30-2007, 08:51 PM

I like Hodgell a lot, but I agree she can be a bit hard to read. Some of her names are similar in ways that can be confusing to keep track of. But I really enjoyed her books when the first couple came out, and I've been delighted to find more recently.

She's more of an "atmosphere" author than an "action" author. Your daughter might want to try Patricia McKillip, if she hasn't yet. Jessica Amanda Salmonson might be another good choice. Maybe Tanith Lee. Or Meredith Ann Pierce.

I like both science fiction and fantasy, though I have my preferences within each, like anyone. I don't much care for most "military" sf, and there's a comparable variety of fantasy that doesn't do much for me, either. Recently I started Sheepfarmer's Daughter by Elizabeth Moon (from the free Baen library), and dropped it within the first couple of chapters. Not enough character development or interesting ideas for me. Someone who likes lots of action and stories of a life of adventure might enjoy it a lot more than I did, though. (On the other hand, I finished an ebook recently that had plenty of ideas and tried to have interesting character development, but I just really didn't enjoy the writing or the book -- I don't even remember the title or author now, though I usually make a point of remembering such things. It was recommended here, as it had been nominated for an award and the author was making it available for free online.)

An interesting science fiction/fantasy hybrid I've read several times is Melissa Scott's Five Twelfths of Heaven and sequels.

NatCh · 06-30-2007, 09:05 PM

I've read The Deed of Paksenarrion (of which Sheepfarmer's Daughter is the first volume) and really enjoyed it. I'd agree that the character development is pretty much non-existent in the first couple of chapters, but that changes drastically as the story progresses -- you wouldn't even know it was the same character by the third book.

Paks starts out as pretty much an idealistic and a somewhat naive character, and Moon lets her go through some tough things before that starts to crack. Eventually the whole character is broken down to component parts and rebuilt from the ground up. I'd suggest you consider going back and giving it, oh, half the the first book before you give up on it completely. That should be well more than enough to hook you if it's going to. It does start slowly, and focuses mostly on action at the beginning, but I think it settles down to a better mix a bit farther on, and I found it a very satisfying read. I've bought two paper copies so far (gave one away), and I'll purchase the trilogy again from Baen as an e-book when I get ready to re-read it next time.

However, don't bother with the second trilogy, The Legacy of Gird, which is set much earlier. It mostly tries to explain some of the back-story for Deed, and, while it was more entertaining than The Silmarillion, I still didn't like it nearly as much.

nekokami · 06-30-2007, 09:28 PM

Hm. I'll consider giving it another shot later.

BTW, the book I finished but didn't care for was Blindsight, by Peter Watts. I finally found the title (after several unsuccessful search attempts here, at Amazon, on Google, and on Wikipedia) by searching for "vampire genetic aliens". I wanted to like this book, and if someone had given me the premise and some of the interesting ideas up front, I'd have prediced I would like it, but on the actual read I just didn't care for it. I suppose the effort to create a narration character incapable of empathy was too successful, leaving me unable to empathise with anyone in the story.

mogui · 06-30-2007, 10:53 PM

Thanks, Neko, for the author tips. They have been relayed to my daughter.

Another author I have enjoyed is Sam Llewellyn. He writes sea stories of the coast of Cornwall. His writing is highly involving. I read his books maybe five years ago. I find if I re-read an author about every ten years, I have forgotten enough to make it a fresh read. Bonus: there are usually new books to be read. The mild downside is that I have inklings of prescience while reading that usually turn out to be correct.

Hm. This thread is only six days old and I seem to have lost track of the topic already, haven't I?

cherdman · 07-01-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astra_lestat

That's my point. I usually force myself to give book a chance and read but I failed with Thomas Covenant books, saying that after I managed to finish Redemption of Althalus speaks volumes

(I mean it is not for me, it might be good for others)

Terry Goodkind...I have not read him yet. I will try him sometime when he finishes his series, however....I frequent two big fantasy forums

ASOIAF
MalazanWorld

The amount of sh"£ poured on TG on these forums is unimaginable

He is considered the worst writer ever in fantasy. People who love all different types of fantasy and different writers (some might love Martin and hate Erikson and vice versa), all agree in a general concensus that TG is an utter rubbish and should even exist

I don't know any fantasy writer who sparks so much hatred from fantasy lovers

So I imagine that you would recommend the Steven Erikson books, eh? I finally found a copy of Gardens of the Moon at my local Borders but haven't picked it up yet...

astra · 07-01-2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cherdman

So I imagine that you would recommend the Steven Erikson books, eh? I finally found a copy of Gardens of the Moon at my local Borders but haven't picked it up yet...

Nope, I would not

I have not started on the series yet. There are only 7 books (the last book was published two months ago) out of 10. I am waiting for S.E. to write 9th book then I am going to reading the series.

Malazan forum consists of 2 parts. One part is for malazan books and another is general part. I visit only the second part.

As far as I know, Gardens of the Moon is a bit difficult book. Probably the worst in the series. Many people start to read it and give up. Quite often it is compared to the first book in Black Company series by Glen Cook, which I read and I can imagine what sort of difficulties one can encounter in this book. You are being thrown into the middle of action, chaos, without any explanation or background knowledge...Eventually everything becomes clear in the later installments but I know that it discouraged some readers from carrying on.

nekokami · 07-02-2007, 12:26 AM

Hm. That's interesting. I gave up on the Black Company books after the first one. I don't even remember, now, what the story was about, but I think I didn't like any of the characters that much, or something like that. I remember thinking the philosophy of the book didn't agree with me, if that makes sense. Again, stories about soldiers and war, in general, don't do much for me, unless there's an awful lot else going on. (C.J. Cherryh's "Company Wars" books come to mind as exceptions, particularly Rimrunners, which I wouldn't have thought I would like, if someone were to give me the bare description, but which I did like quite a bit, because of the psychological stuff happening during the story.)

Unfortunately, not being interested in "military" SF or Fantasy cuts out a lot of the Baen line.

NatCh · 07-02-2007, 12:50 AM

I might suggest you take a look at David Weber's "Honor Harrington" series. It's technically milscifi, but it's mostly about the characters' evolutions, and the mechanics of government society and the military (not in that order -- as the series progresses, the scope gets bigger as the main character rises in the hierarchy, and has more visibility of it all). On Basilisk Station is the first in that series, I think it has a lot to offer even the militarily disinterested. That title, at least, is in the Baen Free Library, with all the benefits that go along with it.

Besides, David Weber appears to be incapable of writing bad stuff. You may decide you're not interested in the subject matter, but his style is quite good, IMHO.

HarryT · 07-02-2007, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

Besides, David Weber appears to be incapable of writing bad stuff. You may decide you're not interested in the subject matter, but his style is quite good, IMHO.

David Weber writes good stories, but I'm not sure I'd say he's a good writer, from the viewpoint of writing good English. He does tend to have "stock phrases" which he uses rather to excess. For example, Honor Harrington never merely "folds her arms" but always "folds her arms under her breasts" (where else is she going to fold them?) - count the number of times that phrase is used in any HH book

. Similarly he has an obsession with "plumbing connections" when putting on spacesuits. In the later books she is described - frequently - as being a "multi-millionaire, several times over" which is a somewhat "redundant" expression, to say the least. She always speaks in a "soprano voice". etc. etc. etc. etc.

Despite these literary "shortcomings" he does write truly excellent books, and I'd recommend them without hesitation.

mogui · 07-02-2007, 05:42 AM

I was in the third grade. Things were bad. I had to sit in the row farthest from the windows. It was arithmetic time. I had my book open in front of me. The room seemed to grow musty and confining. Then things got much worse. From nowhere came an unwelcome urge. My mouth began watering uncontrollably and I had the most disagreeable sensation. With no control on my part, vomitus erupted all over my arithmetic textbook and the unfortunate little girl sitting in front of me.

I forget her name, or even her appearance. Whoever you are, I am deeply sorry. She and I became the center of attention. The janitor appeared with rags and bucket. The teacher, with a look of disgust, shook my book off into the wastebasket.

The little girl and I got to go home. The classroom reeked for days as my sodden arithmetic book slowly dried on the radiator by the window. My flu got better and the little girl cleaned up pretty good, but my arithmetic book carried the stench for the rest of the year. Even now, when I think of numbers, the fetid odor fills my nostrils.

When a book really stank, as this one did, I became allergic to arithmetic, I did.

NatCh · 07-02-2007, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

He does tend to have "stock phrases" which he uses rather to excess.

The phrase "palm uppermost" is my personal least loved stock phrase, he seemed to use it at least thrice per book for the first five novels or so.

Yeah, you have a point.

nekokami · 07-02-2007, 08:14 PM

Ok, fair warning. Since at least I can try Weber without having someone's flu detritus all over it, how bad can it be?

I'm on holiday this week -- maybe I'll download one and give it a try.

View Poll Results: What do you do with a book that stinks?
I ditch it.	75	75.00%
I still read it.	25	25.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

06-30-2007, 10:53 PM	#37
mogui eNigma Posts: 503 Karma: 1335 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The Philippines Device: HTC G1 Android FBReader	Thanks, Neko, for the author tips. They have been relayed to my daughter. Another author I have enjoyed is Sam Llewellyn. He writes sea stories of the coast of Cornwall. His writing is highly involving. I read his books maybe five years ago. I find if I re-read an author about every ten years, I have forgotten enough to make it a fresh read. Bonus: there are usually new books to be read. The mild downside is that I have inklings of prescience while reading that usually turn out to be correct. Hm. This thread is only six days old and I seem to have lost track of the topic already, haven't I? Last edited by mogui; 06-30-2007 at 11:01 PM.

07-02-2007, 05:42 AM	#43
mogui eNigma Posts: 503 Karma: 1335 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The Philippines Device: HTC G1 Android FBReader	It has been a secret until now I was in the third grade. Things were bad. I had to sit in the row farthest from the windows. It was arithmetic time. I had my book open in front of me. The room seemed to grow musty and confining. Then things got much worse. From nowhere came an unwelcome urge. My mouth began watering uncontrollably and I had the most disagreeable sensation. With no control on my part, vomitus erupted all over my arithmetic textbook and the unfortunate little girl sitting in front of me. I forget her name, or even her appearance. Whoever you are, I am deeply sorry. She and I became the center of attention. The janitor appeared with rags and bucket. The teacher, with a look of disgust, shook my book off into the wastebasket. The little girl and I got to go home. The classroom reeked for days as my sodden arithmetic book slowly dried on the radiator by the window. My flu got better and the little girl cleaned up pretty good, but my arithmetic book carried the stench for the rest of the year. Even now, when I think of numbers, the fetid odor fills my nostrils. When a book really stank, as this one did, I became allergic to arithmetic, I did.

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06-30-2007, 11:54 AM	#32
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3

06-30-2007, 01:45 PM	#33
mogui eNigma Posts: 503 Karma: 1335 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The Philippines Device: HTC G1 Android FBReader	So what does anybody think of PC Hodgell? I do not have a good rapport with the fantasy genre, but my daughter is very big on Hodgell. I read one, I forget which, and I kind of got lost keeping track of who was who and who could do what. Science fiction is easier and more comfortable for me, but I wondered. Is it just me? Or is she hard to read?

06-30-2007, 08:51 PM	#34
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	I like Hodgell a lot, but I agree she can be a bit hard to read. Some of her names are similar in ways that can be confusing to keep track of. But I really enjoyed her books when the first couple came out, and I've been delighted to find more recently. She's more of an "atmosphere" author than an "action" author. Your daughter might want to try Patricia McKillip, if she hasn't yet. Jessica Amanda Salmonson might be another good choice. Maybe Tanith Lee. Or Meredith Ann Pierce. I like both science fiction and fantasy, though I have my preferences within each, like anyone. I don't much care for most "military" sf, and there's a comparable variety of fantasy that doesn't do much for me, either. Recently I started Sheepfarmer's Daughter by Elizabeth Moon (from the free Baen library), and dropped it within the first couple of chapters. Not enough character development or interesting ideas for me. Someone who likes lots of action and stories of a life of adventure might enjoy it a lot more than I did, though. (On the other hand, I finished an ebook recently that had plenty of ideas and tried to have interesting character development, but I just really didn't enjoy the writing or the book -- I don't even remember the title or author now, though I usually make a point of remembering such things. It was recommended here, as it had been nominated for an award and the author was making it available for free online.) An interesting science fiction/fantasy hybrid I've read several times is Melissa Scott's Five Twelfths of Heaven and sequels.

06-30-2007, 09:05 PM	#35
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	I've read The Deed of Paksenarrion (of which Sheepfarmer's Daughter is the first volume) and really enjoyed it. I'd agree that the character development is pretty much non-existent in the first couple of chapters, but that changes drastically as the story progresses -- you wouldn't even know it was the same character by the third book. Paks starts out as pretty much an idealistic and a somewhat naive character, and Moon lets her go through some tough things before that starts to crack. Eventually the whole character is broken down to component parts and rebuilt from the ground up. I'd suggest you consider going back and giving it, oh, half the the first book before you give up on it completely. That should be well more than enough to hook you if it's going to. It does start slowly, and focuses mostly on action at the beginning, but I think it settles down to a better mix a bit farther on, and I found it a very satisfying read. I've bought two paper copies so far (gave one away), and I'll purchase the trilogy again from Baen as an e-book when I get ready to re-read it next time. However, don't bother with the second trilogy, The Legacy of Gird, which is set much earlier. It mostly tries to explain some of the back-story for Deed, and, while it was more entertaining than The Silmarillion, I still didn't like it nearly as much.

06-30-2007, 09:28 PM	#36
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Hm. I'll consider giving it another shot later. BTW, the book I finished but didn't care for was Blindsight, by Peter Watts. I finally found the title (after several unsuccessful search attempts here, at Amazon, on Google, and on Wikipedia) by searching for "vampire genetic aliens". I wanted to like this book, and if someone had given me the premise and some of the interesting ideas up front, I'd have prediced I would like it, but on the actual read I just didn't care for it. I suppose the effort to create a narration character incapable of empathy was too successful, leaving me unable to empathise with anyone in the story.

07-02-2007, 12:26 AM	#40
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Hm. That's interesting. I gave up on the Black Company books after the first one. I don't even remember, now, what the story was about, but I think I didn't like any of the characters that much, or something like that. I remember thinking the philosophy of the book didn't agree with me, if that makes sense. Again, stories about soldiers and war, in general, don't do much for me, unless there's an awful lot else going on. (C.J. Cherryh's "Company Wars" books come to mind as exceptions, particularly Rimrunners, which I wouldn't have thought I would like, if someone were to give me the bare description, but which I did like quite a bit, because of the psychological stuff happening during the story.) Unfortunately, not being interested in "military" SF or Fantasy cuts out a lot of the Baen line.

07-02-2007, 12:50 AM	#41
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	I might suggest you take a look at David Weber's "Honor Harrington" series. It's technically milscifi, but it's mostly about the characters' evolutions, and the mechanics of government society and the military (not in that order -- as the series progresses, the scope gets bigger as the main character rises in the hierarchy, and has more visibility of it all). On Basilisk Station is the first in that series, I think it has a lot to offer even the militarily disinterested. That title, at least, is in the Baen Free Library, with all the benefits that go along with it. Besides, David Weber appears to be incapable of writing bad stuff. You may decide you're not interested in the subject matter, but his style is quite good, IMHO.

07-02-2007, 08:14 PM	#45
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Ok, fair warning. Since at least I can try Weber without having someone's flu detritus all over it, how bad can it be? I'm on holiday this week -- maybe I'll download one and give it a try.

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