Philadelphia Free Library down

[screwballl]

what the ****? Wait times for an ebook? You walk up, you download it to your reader and you go. Where the heck does a wait time come into play? It is digital media, easily reproducible and distributed.
Someone really has a racket going on. Considering most of the books should be available online for cheap or free, sounds like someone did not really think that out too well.

[vaughnmr]

Originally Posted by screwballl

what the ****? Wait times for an ebook? You walk up, you download it to your reader and you go. Where the heck does a wait time come into play? It is digital media, easily reproducible and distributed.
Someone really has a racket going on. Considering most of the books should be available online for cheap or free, sounds like someone did not really think that out too well.

Hmmmm... have you ever used a library???

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by screwballl

what the ****? Wait times for an ebook? You walk up, you download it to your reader and you go. Where the heck does a wait time come into play? It is digital media, easily reproducible and distributed.
Someone really has a racket going on. Considering most of the books should be available online for cheap or free, sounds like someone did not really think that out too well.

Libraries buy books. When they paper books, they buy X number of paper copies, where X is determined by the number of branches that will stock the books, and the number of copies they think they will need to meet patron demand. When they buy ebooks, they also buy a set number of copies, based on anticipated demand.

Ebooks are tracked much the same way physical books are. If all purchased copies of an ebook are out on loan, the book is unavailable until one of more have been returned.

The fact that ebooks can be easily reproduced doesn't mean they can be legally distributed. You might not care about the applicable laws, but libraries have to.
______
Dennis

[screwballl]

I have used a library since I was 4... but physical media like a paper book and digital media like an ebook are completely different animals. You cannot put physical limitations on distribution of a digital/electronic source, it doesn't work that way.

It is not like you can take a real book and put it in a duplicator and get 500 exact duplicates except by the manufacturer... but you can take an mp3 or ebook file and copy it from on drive to another, copy it to data/music CD, DVD storage, USB drive, and so on... so with the ease of digital media, the library should be able to lend out as many copies as people want them with ZERO wait. Forcing people to wait has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. That is the entire point of digital media, immediate access to the media without delays or need to wait for the physical media.

Does Amazon force people to wait to buy ebooks? Does itunes make people wait to buy music? If they were allowed to sell X number of copies, and wait until they have approval to sell more? NO? Same deal, digital media is immediate and should be available without delay, doesn't matter if it is online, in a store or from a library.

[elcreative]

Should, would, could have little to do with reality... libraries have limited resources and use a third party to track loans... limited resources still apples in the digital age hence limited number of copies licensed hence wait times... if you don't like them, find them unreasonable, whatever then you can always buy one of the unlimited copies available in the commercial marketplace...

[TallMomof2]

The libraries are charged per copy of the ebook. Most libraries are suffering from big budget cuts so they can't afford to have many copies of the same ebook available for download.

[screwballl]

This is not a PHYSICAL PAPER copy of a book, it is electronic/digital code. A library buys access to the ebook and lends it out. They do not buy access to 5 ebooks, they buy access to computer code that is transferred with a limited timeframe of usage to an electronic device. Doesn't matter if it is 2 people or 200 people at a time, it is code, not paper.
It is not a matter of a limitation of copies because there is no physical media, it is all 1s and 0s. As a long time computer tech, I know how technology works, and a limitation like this has to be the dumbest thing anyone could think of.

[John F]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

For an eBook that has a maximum of 14-day borrow time, we'll get 26 borrows a year. So if the library has 1 copy and you are #27, you have to wait more then a year to get it. Some libraries allow 2 or 3 days wait time before it goes back into the collection. So given that we can have an extra 2 or 3 days added on, probably more like 25 borrows. And some libraries allow 21 day borrowing for a total of 17 borrows per year.

I think most people stick to the default borrow period and that's whatever the maximum time is. Most do not know that if they borrow ePub or PDF that they can return it once they are done. So it'll just sit there with the unused days being wasted.

However, one thing they also do not realize is that once the eBook is downloaded, it may be on the computer forever. When it's deleted or returned via ADE, it's not actually deleted. All that happens is the expired copy is removed from the list. It's still sitting there in the Digital Editions directory taking up space.

In regards to what I bolded and the Philadelphia library, I think your analysis is a little off. The longest wait time I've had is probably 2 months. If there were 27 people waiting for a book, I think the library would buy more copies. I would say the maximum queue I've seen is around 10, when you take into account number of people waiting and the number of copies available, and the average is around 5 for a "popular" title. Take John Grisham's The Confession as an example, it has 73 people waiting, and 14 copies of the EPub.

[elcreative]

Wrong, a library buys access to a specific number of copies of an eBook, just because you think it's dumb doesn't alter the fact that this is the way it works... and it is done this way because they have yet to work out a fair way to handle actually reimbursing authors for their work so rather than not have eBook loans at all, libraries currently work within the existing model.

If you're such a hot computer tech then come up with a system that requires minimum to zero outlay by the libraries whilst tracking and controlling all loans and satisfying the needs of reimbursing authors... you'll make a fortune

Originally Posted by screwballl

This is not a PHYSICAL PAPER copy of a book, it is electronic/digital code. A library buys access to the ebook and lends it out. They do not buy access to 5 ebooks, they buy access to computer code that is transferred with a limited timeframe of usage to an electronic device. Doesn't matter if it is 2 people or 200 people at a time, it is code, not paper.
It is not a matter of a limitation of copies because there is no physical media, it is all 1s and 0s. As a long time computer tech, I know how technology works, and a limitation like this has to be the dumbest thing anyone could think of.

[leebase]

Don't you folks know that everything on the internet is FREE FREE FREE? If I take something from you, but you still have it, it can't possibly have been stolen. Due to digital, everything is FREE FREE FREE.

The library buys one copy of an ebook, then "lends" it to everyone in the world, FREE FREE FREE.

Nonny

[screwballl]

An author is paid per copy sold, regardless if it is paper or electronic. If it is for library use, they tend to get a higher percentage. Otherwise there is nothing comparative between a paper book and ebook. Someone (likely the publishers) are just finding ways to screw the public out of access to their books in electronic format, by forcing a "per copy license" of ebooks rather than allowing it to be used like it is supposed to be, as digital code to be freely distributed, free of the restrictions of physical copies. If that means the library is charged the same price as a physical book, so be it. The library at that point should be free to lend as many digital copies as they want. That is the entire purpose of having digital usage of media, not to be hampered by the same limitations of a physical item.

Originally Posted by leebase

Don't you folks know that everything on the internet is FREE FREE FREE? If I take something from you, but you still have it, it can't possibly have been stolen. Due to digital, everything is FREE FREE FREE.

The library buys one copy of an ebook, then "lends" it to everyone in the world, FREE FREE FREE.

Nonny

It is NOT a matter of free, but do you pay the library to "rent" a book? My library is 100% free for up to 2 items per person.

One possible modification of existing policy could be charging 10-25 cents each time an ebook is lent out without a wait, otherwise applying a physical restriction to freely distributable digital item is the dumbest thing anyone could do in this digital age.

[Andrew H.]

[QUOTE=screwballl;1313275]An author is paid per copy sold, regardless if it is paper or electronic. If it is for library use, they tend to get a higher percentage. Otherwise there is nothing comparative between a paper book and ebook. Someone (likely the publishers) are just finding ways to screw the public out of access to their books in electronic format, by forcing a "per copy license" of ebooks rather than allowing it to be used like it is supposed to be, as digital code to be freely distributed, free of the restrictions of physical copies.
[quote]
This is incredibly, mind-achingly stupid, since there's no way for the authors, etc. to make any money from their work. Of course you license per use. Otherwise, one library could buy one e-book, and share it with the 20,000 other US libraries, who could all lend as many copies as they want. With the result that 100,000 people read your book, and you are paid for one copy.

And I'm not sure where you come up with the idea that digital code is "supposed to" be freely distributed. It's not "supposed to be" anything.

If that means the library is charged the same price as a physical book, so be it. The library at that point should be free to lend as many digital copies as they want. That is the entire purpose of having digital usage of media, not to be hampered by the same limitations of a physical item.

The library can lend as many digital copies as they have licenses for.

It is NOT a matter of free, but do you pay the library to "rent" a book? My library is 100% free for up to 2 items per person.

The library actually buys the books it lends, and this money makes its way to the actual author and others involved in making the book.

One possible modification of existing policy could be charging 10-25 cents each time an ebook is lent out without a wait, otherwise applying a physical restriction to freely distributable digital item is the dumbest thing anyone could do in this digital age.

Have you ever read an e-book, bought a CD or DVD, or used computer software. None of these are "freely distributable" without the permission of the author.

Where have you been for the past 30 years?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by screwballl

This is not a PHYSICAL PAPER copy of a book, it is electronic/digital code. A library buys access to the ebook and lends it out. They do not buy access to 5 ebooks, they buy access to computer code that is transferred with a limited timeframe of usage to an electronic device. Doesn't matter if it is 2 people or 200 people at a time, it is code, not paper.
It is not a matter of a limitation of copies because there is no physical media, it is all 1s and 0s. As a long time computer tech, I know how technology works, and a limitation like this has to be the dumbest thing anyone could think of.

What part of "The library buys books" is not clear to you?

They can lend as many as they have purchased, regardless of whether the book is paper or electronic.

If the library buys, say, 50 copies of an ebook, and 100 patrons all want to borrow it, the first 50 patrons to try get it, and the other 50 wait for it to be returned. The library cannot simply create more copies to lend just because it's easy to do so.

Unauthorized duplication and distribution of a paid for ebook is theft, and libraries don't do that.

(And most libraries don't host the ebooks themselves. They go through a vendor called Overdrive, and Overdrive actually provides the downloaded copy, and tracks which library it was borrowed from and how many copies that library purchased and has available to lend. If you read the earlier portion of the thread, you'll see that it wasn't the Philadelphia Free Library that was down, it was Overdrive. The PFL site was up and running fine. The feed from Overdrive that supplied the downloadable ebooks was overwhelmed.)
______
Dennis

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by screwballl

Does Amazon force people to wait to buy ebooks? Does itunes make people wait to buy music? If they were allowed to sell X number of copies, and wait until they have approval to sell more? NO? Same deal, digital media is immediate and should be available without delay, doesn't matter if it is online, in a store or from a library.

Do libraries make people wait to BUY ebooks?

[leebase]

What is all this nonsense about libraries needing to buy ebooks. Digital makes everything FREE FREE FREE. There should be no waiting to borrow an ebook from the library because it costs nothing to make a copy for everyone who wants it.

It's all FREE FREE FREE

Lee