PDF is Driving me Crazy !! - Page 3

HarryT · 06-08-2007, 01:01 PM

Gentlemen, please - a little decorum. We can disagree with someone's point of view without having to stoop to personal insults! Attack the opinion, if you will, but not the person.

Thank you!

kovidgoyal · 06-08-2007, 01:03 PM

Its the GUI vs. CLI wars! All's fair in love and war

JSWolf · 06-08-2007, 01:10 PM

Let me just say that even though I use Windows XP, I have a 4NT command line window open and use it a lot. Sometimes it's just so much eaier to use then the GUI.

NatCh · 06-08-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Its the GUI vs. CLI wars! All's fair in love and war

Perhaps so, but there's no reason to be undignified about the matter.

Personally, I love having access to a command line in Windows -- there are somethings that Windows won't let me do, but the command line will ... well, it will as long as I can remember the commands.

I wouldn't want to go all the way either direction, myself. Both approaches have strengths that I want to shamelessly exploit.

HarryT · 06-08-2007, 01:14 PM

Absolutely. Just not cricket is it, old boy? Must keep a stiff upper lip and all that!

NatCh · 06-08-2007, 01:17 PM

Quite. Jolly good form there, old bean. Cheerio and all that rot.

kovidgoyal · 06-08-2007, 01:17 PM

Well sure, it's not like I don't use GUI applications at all. My original point, to which alex seems to have taken umbrage was simply that the CLI is like talking to a computer while a GUI is like communicating in gestures. As such a CLI, in general has much more expressive power. That is not too say that there aren't tasks for which the GUI is more suited. In fact in another thread I remember saying that picking things from lists is one of those tasks, which is precisely why I go to all the trouble of building a GUI for libprs500.

HarryT · 06-08-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Let me just say that even though I use Windows XP, I have a 4NT command line window open and use it a lot. Sometimes it's just so much eaier to use then the GUI.

Spot on. Use the right tool for the right job. Eg, if you want to copy a bunch of files whose names can be conveniently expressed using a "wild card", a command line is the best way to do it. If you want to visually select a group of files whose names bear no common relationship, a GUI is a more efficient way to do it. It's useful to know how to do tasks both ways.

kovidgoyal · 06-08-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Absolutely. Just not cricket is it, old boy? Must keep a stiff upper lip and all that!

I'm from the tropics

NatCh · 06-08-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

I'm from the tropics

Yeah, but Harry is a Brit, sometimes the accent breaks through.

kovidgoyal · 06-08-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

Yeah, but Harry is a Brit, sometimes the accent breaks through.

Sometimes!

But I have to say I love Brit accents.

JSWolf · 06-08-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Sometimes!

But I have to say I love Brit accents.

My Wife is from Scotland. You'd love her accent.

HarryT · 06-08-2007, 01:34 PM

Sorry - couldn't help myself for a minute, there

.

I think that both of you are right - both GUIs and command lines have their place.

If you want to carry our repetitive tasks, or a task on a group of files, a CLI is very useful.

If you only use a tool occasionally, though, a GUI where you select options for a dialog box is much easier to use than having to memorise cryptic parameters.

Both have their place. Both are useful.

alex_d · 06-09-2007, 03:23 AM

Using python on the command line is very interesting, and you're right about command-line scripting. In general, automation of tasks is something that a GUI sorely lacks (despite some limited solutions). That's why right after my rant I asked if someone had a command-line html renderer for my command-line script RasterFarian (I wonder if anyone noticed the irony.)

However, in terms of applications themselves, I still stand adamantly behind my point that steep learning curves stop people from learning new tools and features, stop people from developing new tools and features (since few will adopt them), and halt progress of the entire industry.

Again, I agree with your point that if I spent as much time on the command-line as I do on windows (although recently I've been working with a shell nearly every day), I would find learning new programs easier. BUT, without a shadow of a doubt, the learning curve would always be far steeper than with GUI programs. When you say that learning new command-line tools is easy, I'll bet you're thinking of simple tools (in fact trivial in comparison to GUI shareware). A command-line tool that has the same number of features and settings as a typical shareware app will be more difficult to get working in some sort of way, more difficult to get it working in exactly the way that you want, and MOST IMPORTANTLY it will be far more difficult to find the useful features that you didn't know about and weren't already trying to find.

But the biggest problem I have with command-line tools is in the hypocrisy. You're always told to "read the fucking manual." Alright, in some ways this is a reasonable position to argue. However, why does the fn manual invariable FN SUCK. Command-line tools have the WORST manuals. In part the presentation is ridiculous. The man command has no links, no cross-references. Man pages are designed to be displayed on a 80x24 character screen which means that most of the time they are unreasonably terse. And because there is no way to say "well, you can print, copy, and pageanate" all the explanations have to be dumped on the screen right away. Not only do the man pages not say enough, they also say way too much! You can't get a quick outline, you can't get a good explanation.

Why does windows, which doesn't subscribe to RTFM, has had excellently cross-referenced html manuals built for 15 years, and all sorts of searching ability across local and online help for 5 years, while linux, which tells you to always rtfm, has crap?

How damn preposterous is that?

If it wasn't for google and discussion boards, I don't think i'd be able to do a single thing in linux. Meanwhile, I was able to master Windows without looking anything up (and hundreds of millions of people have too). THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GUI AND COMMAND LINE. Thank god for the visionaries at xerox, apple, and microsoft.

Ironically enough, though, I write shell scripts and you write GUIs.

So I think I appreciate the benefits of CLI to the same degree that you already know how important it is to make a GUI to get people to learn, use, and adopt your program. It's not just about selecting things from lists.

kovidgoyal · 06-09-2007, 03:57 AM

Oh I agree the CLI has a much steeper learning curve, just like learning a language to communicate has a much steeper learning curve as opposed to communicating by miming. To push the analogy further when you try to make miming achieve the expressivity of speech it becomes much harder, as in sign language.

I actually think the UNIX CLI has much better documentation than windows. I love the ability to be able to efficiently search through a man page using a regexp for what I need. Also man files are linked. Open them in konqueror via the man:/ ioslave for example and they are render as nice colorful hyperlinked HTML. You can also use the info command which acheives linking in a terminal, though there aren't as many info help files as man pages. I agree thought that Linux GUI tools generally have worse documentation than their windows counterparts.

I also think that it's much easier to find new features for a command. Since each command is designed to perform a small set of tasks and all those tasks are documented in a single place (the man page or via the --help switch). Whereas for a GUI you typically have to search through help (which is as hard as searching through a man page) or if the help is inadequate you have to hunt through umpteen dialog boxes and tabs which is a god almighty pain. But again it takes a larger initial investment (reading through a man page) for a larger long-term payoff.

So yeah I agree that GUIs are [i]initially[\i]easier to learn, but my point was that CLIs are more powerful, not easier. And as we gradually emerge from the dawn of computing we really should move towards the more powerful paradigm. I think this will happen automatically once voice recognition becomes usable. The mapping of voice commands -> CLI is much more natural than to the GUI.

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06-08-2007, 01:01 PM	#31
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Gentlemen, please - a little decorum. We can disagree with someone's point of view without having to stoop to personal insults! Attack the opinion, if you will, but not the person. Thank you!

06-08-2007, 01:03 PM	#32
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 45,295 Karma: 27111240 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	Its the GUI vs. CLI wars! All's fair in love and war

06-08-2007, 01:10 PM	#33
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,577 Karma: 145863177 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Let me just say that even though I use Windows XP, I have a 4NT command line window open and use it a lot. Sometimes it's just so much eaier to use then the GUI.

06-08-2007, 01:14 PM	#35
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Absolutely. Just not cricket is it, old boy? Must keep a stiff upper lip and all that!

06-08-2007, 01:17 PM	#36
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	Quite. Jolly good form there, old bean. Cheerio and all that rot.

06-08-2007, 01:34 PM	#43
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Sorry - couldn't help myself for a minute, there . I think that both of you are right - both GUIs and command lines have their place. If you want to carry our repetitive tasks, or a task on a group of files, a CLI is very useful. If you only use a tool occasionally, though, a GUI where you select options for a dialog box is much easier to use than having to memorise cryptic parameters. Both have their place. Both are useful.

06-09-2007, 03:23 AM	#44
alex_d Addict Posts: 303 Karma: 187 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: Sony Reader	Using python on the command line is very interesting, and you're right about command-line scripting. In general, automation of tasks is something that a GUI sorely lacks (despite some limited solutions). That's why right after my rant I asked if someone had a command-line html renderer for my command-line script RasterFarian (I wonder if anyone noticed the irony.) However, in terms of applications themselves, I still stand adamantly behind my point that steep learning curves stop people from learning new tools and features, stop people from developing new tools and features (since few will adopt them), and halt progress of the entire industry. Again, I agree with your point that if I spent as much time on the command-line as I do on windows (although recently I've been working with a shell nearly every day), I would find learning new programs easier. BUT, without a shadow of a doubt, the learning curve would always be far steeper than with GUI programs. When you say that learning new command-line tools is easy, I'll bet you're thinking of simple tools (in fact trivial in comparison to GUI shareware). A command-line tool that has the same number of features and settings as a typical shareware app will be more difficult to get working in some sort of way, more difficult to get it working in exactly the way that you want, and MOST IMPORTANTLY it will be far more difficult to find the useful features that you didn't know about and weren't already trying to find. But the biggest problem I have with command-line tools is in the hypocrisy. You're always told to "read the fucking manual." Alright, in some ways this is a reasonable position to argue. However, why does the fn manual invariable FN SUCK. Command-line tools have the WORST manuals. In part the presentation is ridiculous. The man command has no links, no cross-references. Man pages are designed to be displayed on a 80x24 character screen which means that most of the time they are unreasonably terse. And because there is no way to say "well, you can print, copy, and pageanate" all the explanations have to be dumped on the screen right away. Not only do the man pages not say enough, they also say way too much! You can't get a quick outline, you can't get a good explanation. Why does windows, which doesn't subscribe to RTFM, has had excellently cross-referenced html manuals built for 15 years, and all sorts of searching ability across local and online help for 5 years, while linux, which tells you to always rtfm, has crap? How damn preposterous is that? If it wasn't for google and discussion boards, I don't think i'd be able to do a single thing in linux. Meanwhile, I was able to master Windows without looking anything up (and hundreds of millions of people have too). THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GUI AND COMMAND LINE. Thank god for the visionaries at xerox, apple, and microsoft. Ironically enough, though, I write shell scripts and you write GUIs. So I think I appreciate the benefits of CLI to the same degree that you already know how important it is to make a GUI to get people to learn, use, and adopt your program. It's not just about selecting things from lists.

06-09-2007, 03:57 AM	#45
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 45,295 Karma: 27111240 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	Oh I agree the CLI has a much steeper learning curve, just like learning a language to communicate has a much steeper learning curve as opposed to communicating by miming. To push the analogy further when you try to make miming achieve the expressivity of speech it becomes much harder, as in sign language. I actually think the UNIX CLI has much better documentation than windows. I love the ability to be able to efficiently search through a man page using a regexp for what I need. Also man files are linked. Open them in konqueror via the man:/ ioslave for example and they are render as nice colorful hyperlinked HTML. You can also use the info command which acheives linking in a terminal, though there aren't as many info help files as man pages. I agree thought that Linux GUI tools generally have worse documentation than their windows counterparts. I also think that it's much easier to find new features for a command. Since each command is designed to perform a small set of tasks and all those tasks are documented in a single place (the man page or via the --help switch). Whereas for a GUI you typically have to search through help (which is as hard as searching through a man page) or if the help is inadequate you have to hunt through umpteen dialog boxes and tabs which is a god almighty pain. But again it takes a larger initial investment (reading through a man page) for a larger long-term payoff. So yeah I agree that GUIs are [i]initially[\i]easier to learn, but my point was that CLIs are more powerful, not easier. And as we gradually emerge from the dawn of computing we really should move towards the more powerful paradigm. I think this will happen automatically once voice recognition becomes usable. The mapping of voice commands -> CLI is much more natural than to the GUI.

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