what's the catch ?

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

Laughable!

Intellectual property is hardly the invention of the US - see Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. And have a look at the history of pretty well any country in the world, and you'll see the oppression and displacement of one cultural group or another, enslavement, exploitation. There are plenty of places where it's still happening. The notion that these things are unique to the US (or even to the "Western World") is one of the biggest ideological scams of the current age.

If you want to find justifications for ignoring the rights of authors around the world, you'll have to come up with something a bit better than that.

I did not imply that intellectual property is an American invention. I implied that it was the new means by which America planned to keep its place as global hegemon, a position articulated by people with as great a divergence of opinion as Samir Amin and Jaron Lenier. And while many countries have human rights abuses in their past, the system of organized exploitation and expropriation perpetrated by the West and specifically by the United States is unique in its intensity and in the degree which it has shaped the modern world. There have been massive migrations in the past, that it is true. But generally these migrations have resulted in the blending of peoples, not their annihilation. The Arabs, for example, formed an upper class that gradually absorbed (Arabized) the the peoples they conquered (or not: Iran became Muslim without becoming Arab). The Spanish, while brutal conquerors in some sectors of their empire, interbred and merged with their subject peoples in others (although there is a clear racial hierarchy such as in pre-Morales Bolivia, for example). The American (and Australian) style of displacing or slaughtering the indigenous inhabitants, while not unique, is a.) indicative of the style of conquest that became typical of emerging capitalism and b.) justified by an ideology, tracing its routes to John Locke, that is still very influential. Critiquing the Barbarian migrations or the Mongol holocaust would be academic at this point. Critiquing the various shades of capitalist ideology is still to the point.

[elemenoP]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

Two years?!? Is that a way to "soft-close" the branch? I would be seriously miffed if the county tried to pull that with my local branch.

Oh yes, 2 years, and who wants to place bets about whether this government project will be done on time? Originally they were just going to put in a handicapped ramp but now they are going to overhaul the whole building, keeping the exterior and giving it a new interior. The building is a historic landmark built by the Carnegie family over 100 years ago. So guess how much this project is costing us taxpayers? $2.7 million. And the irony is, now that I have purchased my ereader, I am loving library ebooks so much, I don't know if I will use the library much when it re-opens. And my daughter prefers to go to B&N anyway.

eP

[Kali Yuga]

Well, this might get a little political, but....

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

So, in other words, Americans have found a new way to scam the rest of the planet: intellectual "property."

Nah, anyone can play this game. Sony is a Japanese company which bought several major content publishers, including a major movie studio and one of the 4 largest music publishers in the world.

IP laws are pretty much universal by now, although not necessarily strongly enforced everywhere.

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

You can no longer dominate the world via industrial production, so....

Actually we do dominate the industries, since the US is still the largest market and often decides what gets made. We just hire other people to do a lot of the work.

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

Your lifestyle has been subsidized by the blood of countless other people inside and outside of your country, a country founded on the conquest of land from indigenous people, etc etc....

And where do you live? The Land of Teddy Bears and Candy Canes?

Pretty much every society has an extensive history of violence, brutality, oppression and exploitation.

Originally Posted by luqmaninbomore

I'm not saying that they contribute nothing to the research, but that the keystone they contribute is added to a broad foundation of publicly funded research. That being said, it is not all clear that a lack of IP would mean that there would be an insufficient return on investment: a large amount of money is made simply by being first in the market.

They definitely do more than you acknowledge; e.g. Pfizer can easily spend $7 billion a year on R&D. It's usually up to the pharmaceuticals not only to run (and fund) human trials, but also to bear responsibility in the event that a drug fails and/or actually harms patients.

It's far from clear that "open source medicine" is able to fill the role of the pharmaceuticals. And in most cases, patent protection is fairly short (14 years iirc). Nor is it clear what alternative would necessarily produce a better solution.

Originally Posted by luqmaninbomore

I implied that it was the new means by which America planned to keep its place as global hegemon...

If the US doesn't do it, someone else will.

To wit, the Chinese don't particularly hold IP in high respect, and they are a good candidate for exerting global dominance in the 21st century. You really think they're going to treat anyone all that much fairer than the US has?

Originally Posted by luqmaninbomore

while many countries have human rights abuses in their past, the system of organized exploitation and expropriation perpetrated by the West and specifically by the United States is unique in its intensity and in the degree which it has shaped the modern world.

*cough* Japan's invasion of Manchuria *cough* China in Tibet *cough* Zimbabwe under Mugabi *cough* Chile under Pinochet *cough* Iran under the Shah, Iraq under Hussein, Saudi Arabian government....

Spanish conquistadors as a model of ethical behavior in invasions and colonial rule? That's your position? Really?

The only difference between the US and everyone else is a) how good we are at it, and b) how little Americans acknowledge their imperialism. Americans may believe they are exceptionally virtuous, but that is no more true than the idea that they are exceptionally evil.

[Enkidu of Abydos]

Yikes, 30+ responses in a day and a half !? I was expecting one or two, but this... It's gonna take me an eternity just to read all this, let alone respond !
This just might be the most popular thread I have ever started on any forum (not by the total number of posts, not yet, but certainly by the speed of posting !).
Well, let's get down to the

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Americans may believe they are exceptionally virtuous, but that is no more true than the idea that they are exceptionally evil.

That's a very good one!!! .... and also true for almost any society.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

what puzzles me is why ?

To echo others, it's mostly convenience.

Also, the market is not small and is not flat. IIRC the US alone spends about $35 billion on books (including everything btw), and that's a huge market.

Certain parts of society buy large numbers of books, especially education. It will be a huge benefit, IMO, if you can replace the 50 pounds of books that a 10 year old carries with a 2 ounce ebook reader.

Also, while most people buy only a book or two per year, there are many people who buy 20 or more books a year. Those big buyers benefit substantially from all the conveniences associated with ebooks.

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

it has been my experience that the majority don't want to read metallic gadgets instead (myself not included there of course).

So far, studies tend to show that once the reader gets over that initial reluctance, they prefer ebooks to paper.

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

most of the prospective market are probably Americans, and 99% of Americans for reasons completely puzzling to me (might it be capitalistic indoctrination ?) actually believe you should pay for copying digital files from the Internet (like books, movies, music, games, apps...) so why the heck buy and use e-readers ?

The US is an affluent country and is not afraid of gadgets, but eventually other nations are likely to make a similar shift.

And yes, some of us do believe that the people who spend their time and effort writing, publishing and distributing books deserve to get paid for their work. Do you genuinely believe that the people who make textbooks put no effort into their jobs? Or that writing fiction only takes 5 minutes, a pack of cigarettes and a cup of coffee? Or that computer games write themselves?

A ton of work has to be done before you can put something onto the Internet. What I find puzzling is the idea that you should get someone else's work handed to you for free.

[Baldrake]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

But is that corporate infrastructure even necessary for the production of new drugs? Much of the basic research occurs at publicly funded institutions such as Universities.
Luqman

The part that costs big money is the randomized clinical trials. These are funded by the drug companies themselves. Not to mention that the drug companies also put significant money into the universities to carry out the basic research.

[Enkidu of Abydos]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I for one, love not having to make a 45 minute trek to the nearest bookstore that carries the titles I would want to read.

And I for two love bookstores, even though I usually don't buy anything (not always), but I love the smell and the look of fresh books, and it's a good place to get reading ideas (check out what's currently popular in a favorite genre, read the description, read a page...).

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Also, the ability to go from researching an author to reading that author's work in seconds, was a huge incentive for me. Waiting 4-5 days for delivery (if I ordered the pBook online) played hell with my ability to plan out my reading schedule. With an ereader, I can read a review of the book and be reading the same book 1 minute later. Bada-bing!

Well I don't order books online unless I can't find them in the local bookstore, and then only for manuals or scientific books or the like. When bought in the bookstore, they take 0 seconds to start reading (unless you count the trip home), while starting to read a book in the form of a computer file usually takes 10-15 minutes... A few minutes to download (if it's popular and easy to find), then maybe 10 minutes till I adjust it juuuuust right (like the bear and the porridge) with Book Designer 4.0 (adjusting margins, font size, text formatting...) and then sometimes I'll add the frontcover illustration to the first page... Then I have to plug in the reader and copy the file, then when I first open it it takes a minute or two for the reader to format it.
So it definitely isn't instant gratification for me but reading books isn't about instant gratification at all (it takes hours at least), ice cream is (and sex, sometimes ).
So for you it's speed of delivery, OK.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

So there's a lot more driving the industry than simply portability and geekiness.

So it's portability, geekiness and laziness... Doesn't sound very applaudable...

Originally Posted by HarryT

Buying an eBook reader is cheaper than buying a new house. My house was literally full to bursting with books. Bookshelves, double-stacked, on every wall. Now I have thousands of books on a hard disk the size of a pack of playing cards.

LOL, this is definitely one answer I didn't expect.
I've never even considered that problem, my own book collection fills up one cupboard, barely (I also have thousands on my hard drive, but who doesn't).
So space is reason number 2.

[Enkidu of Abydos]

Originally Posted by GlenBarrington

Most urban Americans earn their living from some sort of intellectual property. Few of us actually MAKE anything you can hold in your hand any more.

Same goes here. Though for other reasons (because the primary sector of economy has it harder then the tertiary and quaternary sectors).
In fact, I'm in the IT bussiness myself, soon to be a software developer (I hope).

Originally Posted by GlenBarrington

Paying others for THEIR intellectual property is a form of enlightened self interest. We consider people like you, a common thief. Sorry for being so blunt, but that's true for a significant number of Americans.

It's OK, I appreciate bluntness, even if it's misguided...
Well I and many other people around the world consider such a position absolutely ridiculous. Because you can't steal anything if anyone hasn't lost that which you have "stolen".
And copying one file from the Internet doesn't lose anything to anyone, except a bit of electricity to you, which you pay for honestly anyway. Potential theoretical earnings to the original creator of the information don't count. Especially if you'd never have payed for it if there was no free means of getting it.

Originally Posted by GlenBarrington

I suspect that as the economy of your country develops, your peoples attitudes towards intellectual property will change as well.

LOL, I don't live in Africa. That's certainly an arrogant statement from you. No it won't change, because your position comes from being a liberal-capitalist American, who on average have a specific cowboy-get-rich-quick-liberal-capitalist mentality stemming from the short history of rapid economic expansion in 2-3 centuries after having taken over a large part of a continent from the now (kind of) mostly extinct native Indians (which is obviously a specific situation because most other developed countries developed over a much longer time and resources were not nearly as easily available, for stealing that is). While on the other hand, most people in most developed countries (especially north-European countries) and some people in America too have a different view on the subject and believe in the freedom of information, and so do I, and that doesn't make me a primitive savage or a thief, nor does being a liberal capitalist make you enlightened. No offense, believe what you will.
I believe that only physical goods and patents can be stolen, while things like computer programs, or files containing books, movies, music and such should be financed by voluntary donations, as some are (and all others are in practice even if not in theory, considering the ease of piracy today)... If I ran my own software developing company, I'd make all the software free for download (because it mostly is anyway) with a donate-via-paypal bottun on the main screen (like one of my favorite programs, CryptLoad) for people who really like the program and want to help further development (I plan to send them some as soon as I renew my PayPal account).

P.S.
If we had a piracy party like in Sweden, I'd join immediately ! Arrrghhh !

[Enkidu of Abydos]

Originally Posted by Pablo

Being closer to your situation than to that of U.S. citizens (I refuse to call them "Americans", I am an also an "American" but not a U.S. citizen)

I get you, there are Americans from one pole to the other. Still, the term Americans is commonly used just for USA-ans.
We'll call them bloody Yanks if it makes you feel better, ok ?

[Enkidu of Abydos]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Like Harry, my home overflows with physical books. Every time I moved I gave away a library's worth and still they pile up. A big benefit of e-readers to me is when I'm done with an e-book it sits on a hard drive. I don't have to find it a home.

Second major benefit is having multiple books packed this lightly. I travel more than average. Even when I'm not traveling I hop between books to suit my mood and, again, a single device is convenient and always with me as opposed to two or three p-books.

Aha, so that's two for storage space. But still, I can't imagine there are many people with houses overflowing with books. Though one of my friends who lives in a flat with two roommates has a room crammed full of books.
As for portability, I've used my reader on the train myself. Perfect for an otherwise boring trip.

[Maggie Leung]

Enkidu, there's nothing stopping anyone from giving away his work. You can do it with physical goods, as well as intellectual property. Just as you have a choice, others have theirs -- to charge for their labors if they like. In countries with intellectual property rights protections, taking such products without paying is theft. Whether you follow laws is between you and the authorities, and your own value system.

Why do I pay for content? Because I respect people's right to charge for their labor, as I expect people to pay for mine.

[Enkidu of Abydos]

Originally Posted by rcuadro

1. I like gadgets

Me too.

Originally Posted by rcuadro

2. I like to read

Me 3.

Originally Posted by rcuadro

3. I like the ability to have a couple books with me should I choose to do so

Me 4.

Originally Posted by The Old Man

One of my biggest reasons is that I can make the print large enough to read. Now, at 78, I find most books I bought years ago have had their print size shrink to the point where is is difficult, if not impossible to read.

My heart goes out to you oldtimer ! Good nick by the way...

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

Same goes here. Though for other reasons (because the primary sector of economy has it harder then the tertiary and quaternary sectors).
In fact, I'm in the IT bussiness myself, soon to be a software developer (I hope).

I will be sure to pirate your software so you cannot earn a living from it
I like to pay authors for writing books so that they can earn a living from it and write MORE books for me to enjoy. It has absolutely nothing with the idea of "free information". There's a difference between "information" and "entertainment", and I choose to pay for my entertainment. I don't understand why that makes me such a terrible person in your opinion???

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

No it won't change, because your position comes from being a liberal-capitalist American, who on average have a specific cowboy-get-rich-quick-liberal-capitalist mentality

Your stereotype of Americans is laughable. Did you learn about Americans from your local media?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Enkidu of Abydos

And I for two love bookstores, even though I usually don't buy anything (not always), but I love the smell and the look of fresh books

Sorry... invoking the "but I love the smell" clause has unfortunately triggered the "drivel" filter in my personal conversation firewall.

conversationtables -A INPUT -m state --state ESTABLISHED,DRIVEL -j DROP